John, how about focusing on what I'm actually saying instead responding with:
Main Entry: non se·qui·tur Pronunciation: 'nän-'se-kw&-t&r also -"tur Function: noun Etymology: Latin, it does not follow 1 : an inference that does not follow from the premises; specifically : a fallacy resulting from a simple conversion of a universal affirmative proposition or from the transposition of a condition and its consequent 2 : a statement (as a response) that does not follow logically from anything previously said at http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/non%20sequitur also FROM: Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary Main Entry: uto·pia Pronunciation: yu-'tO-pE-& Function: noun Etymology: Utopia, imaginary and ideal country in Utopia (1516) by Sir Thomas More, from Greek ou not, no + topos place 1 : an imaginary and indefinitely remote place 2 often capitalized : a place of ideal perfection especially in laws, government, and social conditions 3 : an impractical scheme for social improvement at http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/utopia As I've always maintained: 'utopia' is NOT an option; improvement is.. So, getting back to the point you're apparently attempting to evade: > > John, it IS you that advocates continued initiation, and credible > > threat of initiation, of physical force upon the person or justly > > held possessions of another! (see more below from previous posting) This specific monkey is on YOUR back dude and your attempt to export or do a 'Rove' will only work with weak minded people who don't pay attention. Libertarians who are honest do NOT claim to be 'know it alls' about EVERY possible area of human action. That does means that, beyond the basic 'truce' principle, specific transitions come ONLY from those who are actually expert in a given arena of activity. That does NOT mean, one is free to violate this basic libertarian principle of liberty & justice for all for one's preferred cause. Did you actually read AND ponder what I had written previously below? If so, why are you pretending to not understand the responsibility that comes with freedom? As to your particularly stupid remark: "Libertarianism has no hope of succeeding"... Get a clue, it's the glue that allows what degree of liberty & justice for all that has been achieved so far. Without consistency to a 'physical agression truce' the common ground for 'liberty & justice for all' in the material world just vanishes! While MOST people, MOST of the time, on MOST issues, consciously or not, will abide by this 'truce' many seek 'exceptions' for their own chosen causes. So, they will claim that such a 'commonality' doesn't exist; and that those who say otherwise are being absurd. Of course, people, including these 'exceptors' would NOT be able to walk out their door each day if there was no effective physical aggression truce already working. But, that observation seems not to disuade these exceptors from attempting to con other people about the matter. The truth is, that it is CONSISTENCY to this 'physical aggression truce' (aka NAP 'non aggression principle, ZAP 'zero aggression principle' and so on) which protects the 'self-ownership' autonomy of virtually all persons. Most people DO seem to inherently understand and usually apply the needed reciprocity; even if they don't know how to spell that word, let alone give it conscious definition. This, in fact, is the underlying principle for UNIVERSAL libertarianism; aka 'liberty & justice for ALL' So, a question to would be 'exceptors' is: what makes you think you have the right to initiate, or do a credible threat to initiate, physical force against the person or justly held possessions of another? -Terry Liberty Parker http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian --- In [email protected], "John Stroebel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Ok, let's simplify, shall we? > > How do you change from the present system to the utopia you endorse without > harming millions of people? > > IF you have no plan for that, then you have no plan at all. > > It seems the answer I have received so far is to ignore the suffering caused > by such a changeover, in favor of the 'freedoms' you desire. > > Those 'freedoms' would then come at the expense of millions of innocent > Americans. > > If you have no plan, Libertarianism has no hope of succeeding. > > > On 7/2/06, Terry L Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > John, it IS you that advocates continued initiation, and credible > > threat of initiation, of physical force upon the person or justly > > held possessions of another! > > > > CONSISTENCY to society's 'physical aggression truce' > > (aka NAP 'non aggression principle' ZAP 'zero aggression > > principle' and so on) is not just an essential > > LIBERTARIAN principle, it is the foundation for > > liberty and justice for ALL! > > > > An underlying principle in human action > > is an innate `physical aggression truce' > > which is also the underlying principle > > for UNIVERSAL libertarianism. > > > > PleaseSee: What's at the Heart of What Libertarians are Selling? > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/30419 > > > > This truce gives `self-ownership' > > (exclusive right to determine use > > and disposition) by each individual > > person an essential material protection. > > That can also be phrased as: > > Reciprocal Physical Comprehensive Autonomy for each and every person. > > > > AlsoSee FlashAnimationAt- > > http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.html > > > > Universal liberty's underlying 'physical aggression truce' > > principle (aka NAP/ZAP and so on) thus accommodates > > a just and broad array of choices by `self owning' > > free moral agents, except for the INITIATION, > > or credible threat of initiation, of physical force > > against the person or justly held possessions > > of another (note: the ban on these uses of physical force > > does NOT apply to all other uses) > > > > see: Your Freedom & the Rights of Others > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/22990 > > > > So, what would morally justify a person INITIATING, > > > > or doing a credible threat to initiate, physical force > > against the person or justly held possessions of another; > > AND, why should this `truce' EXCEPTION be allowable > > over the truce exceptions that may be wanted by someone else? > > > > 'Real world' experiment in LIBERTARIAN community became famous > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LibertyProspects/message/2569 > > > > Look for me (especially Sunday eve) as: > > > > TxLiberty on Yahoo Messenger & MSN Messenger > > > > Terry Liberty Parker on Skype > > (supports multiple platforms like > > MAC & Linux along with Windows) > > > > and maybe AustinLiberty on AIM > > > > > > > > 'PeerCasting' continuously now as 'AustinLibertyInterNet' > > via 'Yellow Pages' at www.PeerCast.org > > > > Distributed networking like www.PeerCast.org may enable people to > > create an alternative to govt licenced & controlled broadcasting. > > That can be useful when promoting things that challenge, or may be > > inconvenient to, established authority :) > > Please test this (at various times as needed) as an audience member > > (or even another 'caster) and let me know of your experience(s). > > > > > > ExploreAt http://www.peercast.org/ > > get a very small self installing program > > then select 'yellow pages' > > to find 'AustinLibertyInterNet' webcasting > > as an experiment by me in 'distributed networking' > > then please let me know of your experience > > > > > > > > -Terry Liberty Parker > > AND Find More Free On-demand Playbacks On-line via > > AustinLibertyInterNet Radio/TV > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LibertyProspects/links > > VoiceCall 1.512.462.1776 > > > > every Sunday 6:30pm (central) to ? > > I host informal discussion > > to which all are welcome > > who want to consider ideas & issues > > of Liberty & Justice for ALL > > in Hickory St Grill at 8th & Congress, Austin TX > > Look for me, MyPicAt http://profiles.yahoo.com/txliberty > > > > > > --- In [email protected] <Libertarian% 40yahoogroups.com>, "John > > Stroebel" > > <john.stroebel@> wrote: > > > > > > [ModeratorNote: > > > > > > Yahoo (not me) shunted this message in to a 'spam' que for reasons > > unkown to me. > > > > > > John, did you perhaps post this message to multiple addresses? > > > > > > While this message was posted hours ago, I have just now discovered > > it, and released it for publication in the forum. > > > > > > I'll respond, as a poster not a moderator, to the message content > > later when I have a chance. > > > > > > -TLP ] > > > > > > > > > > > I never world Terry. I do not believe in reneging on treaties, > > abandoning > > > people in need when we are so wealthy a country, ending public > > education or > > > any of the rest. I believe the Government SHOULD provide for those > > things, > > > and until someone shows me a solid reason otherwise that proves to > > be more > > > compelling than providing those things for the public, I reject > > them. > > > > > > As for providing for the national defence, that is covered in the > > > Constitution. > > > > > > But Terry, reversing a question is a well used tactic in debate, > > isn't it. > > > IT taken you off the hook in answering and diverts the discussion > > to the > > > disadvantage of the person asking the original question. > > > > > > It is not ME who endorses cutting taxes entirely, or throwing those > > in need > > > to the wolves, that would be the people posting here. > > > > > > Now, care to answer my question? > > > > > > > > > On 7/2/06, Terry L Parker <txliberty@> wrote: > > > > > > > > John, since you would not advocate initiating, or doing a > > credible > > > > threat to initiate, physical force upon the person or justly held > > > > possessions of another, how would YOU do that which you regard as > > > > needed? > > > > > > > > -Terry Liberty Parker > > > > Humanity's Last Best Hope > > > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/48985 > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected] <Libertarian% 40yahoogroups.com><Libertarian% > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "John > > > > > > Stroebel" > > > > <john.stroebel@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > OK Stephen, let's leave all that aside for a moment. Tell me > > this: > > > > how do > > > > > you propose running this country, building highways, caring for > > the > > > > sick, > > > > > keeping our treaties and agreements and providing or the > > national > > > > > defence....and education the population without taxing the > > citizens? > > > > > > > > > > Now please, don't give me any theory BS....like it should be > > this > > > > or is > > > > > should not be that....just tell me how a Libertarian President, > > > > should one > > > > > ever be elected, do these things? > > > > > > > > > > It seems to be the weak link in your entire platform. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/1/06, steven linnabary <linnabary51@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "John Stroebel" <john.stroebel@ <john.stroebel% > > > > 40gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well Mr Candidate, lack of education and stupidity, the word > > > > YOU choose > > > > > > for > > > > > > > good people you know NOTHING about, is apples and oranges. > > Do > > > > me a > > > > > > > favor....speak with a little dignity. Learn respect for > > these > > > > people. We > > > > > > > have far too many politicians who look down their noses at > > > > groups of > > > > > > > Americans. > > > > > > > > > > > > Huh?? I am not a candidate for anything at this time. > > > > > > > > > > > > My reference to "poor stupid Indians" was a condescending > > swipe > > > > at those > > > > > > that think they know what is best for other people. I think > > you > > > > know this. > > > > > > YOU chose to take the reference out of context. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What does that 'hang around the fort' nonsence apply to" The > > > > Ute? Tell > > > > > > me > > > > > > > something,....WHAT do you personally know about the WHite > > Mesa > > > > Ute that > > > > > > I > > > > > > > haven't told you? > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe nothing. I suppose it is theoretically possible that > > the Ute > > > > > > leadership doesn't "hang around the fort" seeking bigger > > handouts > > > > from > > > > > > their > > > > > > overseers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My guess would b 'squat'. It amazes me when people decide > > > > > > > what is best for others based on something they read or > > learned > > > > in a > > > > > > > theory....like 'all blacks are lazy' or 'all SIcilians are > > > > criminals'. > > > > > > That > > > > > > > is a pretty good example of ignorance. Before you cry over > > the > > > > word, > > > > > > check > > > > > > > the definition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AHA!! YOU said "all blacks are lazy" and "all sicilians are > > > > criminals"! > > > > > > > > > > > > Out of context, of course. And I know that is not what you > > were > > > > trying to > > > > > > say. But two can play this game. I'll make a deal with you. > > You > > > > don't > > > > > > take me out of context, actually listen to what I say, and > > I'll > > > > do the > > > > > > same > > > > > > with you. Let's show each other a little respect. OK? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh...not having experience and being an ass....apples and > > > > oranges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an aside, I helped to install the "American Indian" plank > > to > > > > the LP > > > > > > Platform back in '85. Larry Dodge actually wrote it, but it > > went > > > > a long > > > > > > way > > > > > > toward making Russell Means a Libertarian candidate for POTUS > > > > in '87. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PEACE > > > > > > Steven R. Linnabary, Treasurer > > > > > > Franklin County Libertarian Party > > > > > > (614) 891-8841 > > > > > > P.O.Box#115; Blacklick, OH 43004-0115 > > > > > > > > > > > > "When you make peaceful revolution impossible, you make > > violent > > > > revolution > > > > > > inevitable" John F. Kennedy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > ******************************************************************* > > > > > Are YOU Preparing For The November '06 Elections NOW??? > > > > > > > > > > > > ******************************************************************* > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Save-The-USA/ > > > > > > > > > > It is time to do something about all this! > > > > > > > > > > > > ******************************************************************* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ******************************************************************* > > > Are YOU Preparing For The November '06 Elections NOW??? > > > > > > ******************************************************************* > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Save-The-USA/ > > > > > > It is time to do something about all this! > > > > > > ******************************************************************* > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > ******************************************************************* > Are YOU Preparing For The November '06 Elections NOW??? > > ******************************************************************* > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Save-The-USA/ > > It is time to do something about all this! > > ******************************************************************* > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian Yahoo! 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