Sorry John, I've been away. I'll answer your questions as best as possible given how they are loaded with overtones and very vague.
"How do you change from the present system to the utopia you endorse without harming millions of people?: Those forced to give up life, liberty and property to support those millions of people are the ones being harmed now. If they suddenly stop paying into that system, it is not the taxpayer causing the harm but the government that the welfare recipients rely upon that will no longer be able to pay. I have no doubt that charities and other organizations which are far more efficient and far considerate of the money they receive and spend would step in to help those truly in need. The suggestion that the taxpayer would be the cause of the suffering is like suggesting that the police are causing the robber to suffer when they stop him in the middle of holding up a pedestrian in an alley. As for this idea of "Utopia", that usually implies that everyone is happy and thinks the same way. No Libertarian endorses such an idea. What Libertarians endorse is liberty - meaning we all have the natural right to choose, peacefully, how to dispose of our lives and property. There will always be suffering. People who believe that utopia can exist must believe in a system that can expunge those who refuse to go along with the program. "Utopia" is a very statist ideal. "It seems the answer I have received so far is to ignore the suffering caused by such a changeover, in favor of the 'freedoms' you desire." Again, their suffering is caused by a reliance on a system that must make other suffer in order to maintain that system. I am a taxpayer. If I decide one year to quit my job and live in an Ashram, many people who depend on my productivity an tax money will suffer because I chose to be free. Am I acting wrongly for ignoring that suffering? Maybe we shouldn't have worked to free the slaves in the South. After all, they were important to those who owned them and without them, those landowners suffered great loss. If you have no plan, Libertarianism has no hope of succeeding. That's because few people believe that we have natural rights. Most people, and it seems you are one of them, believe in the social contract theory which is that we give up our rights to the greater good of society, and government by force is the only way to maintain society. Therefore, anything that government does is part of the social contract. You can claim abuse, but if those that have the most power believe their cause is just, you have no moral standing to fight it. Our job is to teach people that there is an alternative. That's not to say everyone will accept it, but they sure aren't being taught anythng other than loyalty to government the public education system. IF you have no plan for that, then you have no plan at all. It seems the answer I have received so far is to ignore the suffering caused by such a changeover, in favor of the 'freedoms' you desire. Those 'freedoms' would then come at the expense of millions of innocent Americans. If you have no plan, Libertarianism has no hope of succeeding. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John Stroebel Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 12:12 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Libertarian] Re: Youthful Entrepreneurs Here is what I notice... When I have asked direct questions, you folks have not once come up with any direct answers. Instead you deny the worth of the question, thus attacking the messenger, or give me jargon or theory. If you care to just answer the question that would be great. So far all you folks are convincing me of is that you are in the same ballpark as neoconservatives and have given no thought to the outcomes of your proposals. Ans Steve, you talk like every other typical politician I have come across. On 7/3/06, steven linnabary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Stroebel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <john.stroebel%40gmail.com> > > > > > OK Stephen, let's leave all that aside for a moment. Tell me this: how > do > > you propose running this country, building highways, caring for the > sick, > > keeping our treaties and agreements and providing or the national > > defence....and education the population without taxing the citizens? > > > > OK, John. > > First, let's get one thing out of the way. NO government program, not a > single one, exists to "help the people". Every single one is simply used > for patronage by the criminals in charge. Building highways is payback to > CERTAIN contractors that made large enough contributions to gain the work. > > Same goes for helping the poor. While any person with a low enough > provable > income might qualify, the PURPOSE of the program is for the patronage the > programs provide. And patronage is provable with FEC records. ALL federal > employees are hired based on their contributions to CERTAIN candidates, > and > the flavor of their urine. > > If you think I am wrong, just take the amount of money spent on welfare > (or > any other government program), divide by the number of people "served", > and > you will find that amount is mind boggling. Reagan, as bad as he was, > stated when he ran the first time that each welfare recipient's share was > something in the neighborhood of $70,000 each. The problem is that that > money gets laundered through tens of thousands of bureaucrats. And it has > only gotten worse in the past twentyfive years. > > Now, to your questions: > 1. Building highways: In OHIO, the government rarely, if ever, builds > roads. New roads are always built by developers. Even the earliest roads, > were toll roads. Now local governments do capital improvements, which is > things like widening and repaving, etc. The ONLY new roads are federal, > which are built by certain contractors and are built where certain > developers and certain contributors want them. The federal interstate > system is what has led to "urban sprawl", led to the decline of railroads, > and nearly destroyed the fledgling airline system (which never rebounded > until the deregulation of the early eighties). > > 2. Caring for the sick: When I was a kid, doctors were so plentiful, they > had to make house calls to keep their customers. EVERYBODY could afford a > doctor, as they were cheap and there were numerous charitable clinics and > hospitals. With the advent of the patronage laden Medicare and Medicaid > programs, it became too expensive for doctors to provide for the poor. And > don't forget that medical schools are being closed throughout the US. Not > because of a lack of need, but because bureaucrats use the idea that there > are too many doctors if they can't afford to spend the time and money to > fill out government forms. Hence, the cost of medical care will go up, > increasing the perceived need for the same bureaucratic programs that > caused > the problems to begin with! > > 3. Treaties and defense: I don't know anybody that opposes treaties, > though there should be little need if we aren't stumbling around the world > like a bull in a china shop. And most of our defense needs could eaily be > met without a standing army (it is against the Constitution, anyway) or a > "blue water" navy. A coastal navy should be sufficient. We currently have > troops in 170+ countries, some of which we will never recognize. These > troops can be considered "pop-up" targets, in the way of local civil > unrest > or regional disputes we will never understand. > > 4. Education: The government school system was set up in the late 1800's, > mainly to keep Roman Catholic children from learning and practicing their > form of worship. In those early years, prayer was required, but a child > could not "cross" himself. Heaven help the child with a Native American > faith or the Jewish child. Nobody on this list is opposed to education. My > own kids could read and write before they ever started school, and they > both > spent the next fourteen or fifteen years bored. They both graduated early. > FWIW, I only sent my kids to school because I was a very low income single > parent that HAD to work and I needed a cheap baby sitter. This was a > mistake because they were indoctrinated with a pro military, pro democrat > party,pro Gaia theology. Not to mention the bad habits they learned from > their peers. > > > > Now please, don't give me any theory BS....like it should be this or is > > should not be that....just tell me how a Libertarian President, should > one > > ever be elected, do these things? > > > > It seems to be the weak link in your entire platform. > > > > Now that isn't theory or BS. Just plain common sense. > > While we are at it, do you support or oppose the patronage laden TSA? The > agency that "provides" security at airports? The agency that provides any > carnie with a republican pedigree (and a certain flavor of urine) a good > government job and who's job appears to be to fondle our loved ones? > > > PEACE > Steven R. Linnabary, Treasurer > Franklin County Libertarian Party > (614) 891-8841 > P.O.Box#115; Blacklick, OH 43004-0115 > > "When you make peaceful revolution impossible, you make violent revolution > inevitable" John F. Kennedy > > > -- ******************************************************************* Are YOU Preparing For The November '06 Elections NOW??? ******************************************************************* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Save-The-USA/ It is time to do something about all this! ******************************************************************* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Something is new at Yahoo! Groups. Check out the enhanced email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/SISQkA/gOaOAA/yQLSAA/KlSolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian Yahoo! 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