Dear Gary, I think there's little doubt about the use of such chords in 19th (and even 18th) century keyboard practice: there's quite a bit of evidence on how they played them. But for 16th/early 17th century lute practice hardly anything at all.
So the problem here is not that we're ignoring what earlier players actually did (as Louis Podesta's "Your Piano Teacher Taught You Wrong" well points out) , but that we might be in danger of assuming that later methods of playing chords (ie 'rolling') were employed in the earlier period - in short, the other way round! Maybe they were - it's just strange that other methods are reported on the lute but this one not.... regards Martyn --- On Fri, 16/11/12, Gary R. Boye <[email protected]> wrote: From: Gary R. Boye <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Rolled chords To: "Christopher Wilke" <[email protected]> Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>, "WALSH STUART" <[email protected]>, "lute" <[email protected]> Date: Friday, 16 November, 2012, 15:38 Chris, Interesting that you should bring up rolled chords; there was much discussion on another list several months ago about this YouTube video: Louis Podesta's "Your Piano Teacher Taught You Wrong" [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPgg3armCI Gary Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 11/16/2012 9:28 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: > Martyn, > The use of rolled chords, like so many things in early music > performance, has to be assigned to the "inconclusive" category. Lack of > evidence does not mean lack of practice. For example, the subject is > rarely mentioned in modern classical guitar methods even though it is a > ubiquitous. Rolling may just have been one of those things that was > done without comment. > Who knows? As always, our primary concern should not be with how > "informed" we are, but whether or not what we do enhances the music. > Chris > > Christopher Wilke > Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer > www.christopherwilke.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Martyn Hodgson <[2][email protected]> > To: WALSH STUART <[3][email protected]> > Cc: lute <[4][email protected]> > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:58 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re/deconstructing Dowland; - and 'rolled' chords > Regarding 'rolled' chords also raised in this thread, these seem to > be > (too?) ubiquitous in this repertoire nowadays and early sources (ie > pre-17th century) don't generally describe the technique. Only when > we > get to the French 17th century lute with separe signs and the like is > the expectation for such fully upwards arpeggiated chords clear. Even > Barley, a perhaps unfairly maligned source, indicates a technique for > playing full 6 note chords or open 5 note chords not too far removed > from that described by later sources (including Mace and Burwell's > teacher as well as by continental instructions), in which the first > finger rakes upwards (ie towards the bass) to cover some of the > courses > whilst the second and third fingers strike the others. I would > suggest > this was more common than we often suppose nowadays and perhaps led > onto the later practice of playing the bass and simultaneously raking > up with the first finger - with the possible added sophistication of > restriking the highest course or two with the second finger - almost > the opposite of a modern 'rolled' chord. > Martyn > --- On Thu, 15/11/12, WALSH STUART <[1][5][email protected]> wrote: > From: WALSH STUART <[2][6][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reconstructing Dowland; deconstructing Dowland > To: "David van Ooijen" <[3][7][email protected]> > Cc: "lute" <[4][8][email protected]> > Date: Thursday, 15 November, 2012, 23:01 > Beautiful playing. I wouldn't have known this was a modern > reconstruction. But I don't know the music well and I haven't > listened > to Dowland in a long time and I don't try and play the music. > But I'm very, very surprised (and intrigued and amused) that it > needs > reconstruction, DIY or otherwise. Two questions: > a) where does this idea leave all the great performances of > Dowland > and > those CD compilations of the complete works? Lindberg, North. > O'Dette, > Chris Wilson etc. They simply didn't notice any fundamental > issues > with > the music? > b) is Dowland's music uniquely flawed? (needs extra parts, needs > cliched florid bits excised, need voice-leading corrected etc). > Dowland > is often posed as the pinnacle of Renaissance lute music. If > the > sources of his music is fundamentally compromised, where does > that > leave all the other lute music of the Renaissance? Does it all > need > a > bit of modern polishing into shape too? > (and how is a modern person somehow seeing through the sources to > what > Dowland would have wanted beyond the abundant evidence of what > people > at the time physically recorded in the tablatures?) > Stuart > On 15 November 2012 22:07, David van Ooijen > <[1][1][5][9][email protected]> wrote: > On 15 November 2012 22:12, WALSH STUART > <[2][2][6][10][email protected]> > wrote: > > Well, isn't anyone other than Dan going to reply to this? I > was > > expecting a huge response! > My (two but) latest CD is a response: two 'new' Dowland solos > `a > la > dt, > albeit reconstructed and played by DvO. ;-) > In other words: dt is right, DIY-Dowland is the way to go! > David > I even uploaded both arrangements to YouTube: > [3][3][7][11]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > [4][4][8][12]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > -- > ******************************* > David van Ooijen > [5][5][9][13][email protected] > [6]www.davidvanooijen.nl > ******************************* > To get on or off this list see list information at > [7][6][10][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. mailto:[7][11][15][email protected] > 2. mailto:[8][12][16][email protected] > 3. [9][13][17]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > 4. [10][14][18]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > 5. mailto:[11][15][19][email protected] > 6. [12][16][20]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > 7. [13][17][21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. > [18][22]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@ gmai > l.com > 2. > [19][23]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] om > 3. [20][24]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > 4. [21][25]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > 5. > [22][26]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@ gmai > l.com > 6. [23][27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 7. > [24][28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@ gmai > l.com > 8. > [25][29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] om > 9. [26][30]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > 10. [27][31]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > 11. > [28][32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@ gmai > l.com > 12. [29][33]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > 13. [30][34]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:[35][email protected] > 2. mailto:[36][email protected] > 3. mailto:[37][email protected] > 4. mailto:[38][email protected] > 5. mailto:[39][email protected] > 6. mailto:[40][email protected] > 7. [41]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > 8. [42]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > 9. mailto:[43][email protected] > 10. [44]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 11. mailto:[45][email protected] > 12. mailto:[46][email protected] > 13. [47]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > 14. [48]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > 15. mailto:[49][email protected] > 16. [50]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > 17. [51]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 18. [52]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai l.com > 19. [53]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 20. [54]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > 21. [55]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > 22. [56]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai l.com > 23. [57]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 24. [58]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai l.com > 25. [59]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 26. [60]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > 27. [61]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > 28. [62]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai l.com > 29. [63]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > 30. [64]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPgg3armCI 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 11. http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 12. http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 16. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 17. http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 18. http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 19. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 20. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 21. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 22. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai 23. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 24. http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 25. http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 26. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai 27. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 28. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai 29. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 30. http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 31. http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 32. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai 33. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 34. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 35. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 36. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 37. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 38. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 39. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 40. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 41. http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 42. http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 43. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 44. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 45. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 46. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 47. http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 48. http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 49. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 50. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 51. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 52. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 53. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 54. http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 55. http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 56. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 57. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 58. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 59. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 60. http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 61. http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 62. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 63. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 64. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
