Dear Chris, I'm not sure I agree with you when you write "This lack of specificity implies that the signs are merely an indication for a pre-existing and well known practice.". It might equally imply that before this time the practice of 'rolled' chords was unusual.
But please don't misunderstand my position: I'm not categorically saying that 'rolled' chords were never played pre-17th century; merely that there's no historical evidence for the practice (unlike the position for such chords in 19th/early 20th century piano performance). regards, Martyn --- On Fri, 16/11/12, Christopher Wilke <[email protected]> wrote: From: Christopher Wilke <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Rolled chords To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>, "Gary R. Boye" <[email protected]> Cc: "WALSH STUART" <[email protected]>, "lute" <[email protected]> Date: Friday, 16 November, 2012, 18:47 Martyn, It is very telling that when signs for arpeggiation - i.e. separee slashes, the % sign in Kapsberger and others' theorbo music - are introduced, they include no information regarding speed or rhythm. This lack of specificity implies that the signs are merely an indication for a pre-existing and well known practice. How long the practice was in existence and in what precise guise it was used is, as I said before, inconclusive. Few would argue today that because indications for articulation or dynamics are rare in much early written music, one should refrain from playing with either. (I said, "few would argue...". Some still do.) Perrine's suggestions for rhythmicizing separee ciphers is the exception that proves the rule. My suspicion is that these may not be a literal record of contemporary lutenists' performance practice. Rather, he was probably attempting to show keyboard players how to approximate an idiomatic lute effect via the resources of a different medium. There is a parallel in the piano works of 19th century Spanish composers like Albeniz and Granados, who often evoked guitar rasgueados with fast arpeggiated figures. These works in transcription have become mainstays of modern guitar repertoire and this brings up another manifestation of the "composer's intentions" issue. Should guitarists slavishly reproduce as many of the written notes of the piano score as exactly as possible, or can "strummy" gestures be replaced with bona fide rasgueados? What would the composer want? Even in these comparatively recent works, we really don't have an answer. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]> To: Gary R. Boye [1][email protected] Maybe they were - it's just strange that other methods are reported on the lute but this one not.... regards Martyn --- On Fri, 16/11/12, Gary R. Boye <[2][email protected]> wrote: From: Gary R. Boye <[3][email protected]> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Rolled chords To: "Christopher Wilke" <[4][email protected]> Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[5][email protected]>, "WALSH STUART" <[6][email protected]>, "lute" <[7][email protected]> Date: Friday, 16 November, 2012, 15:38 Chris, Interesting that you should bring up rolled chords; there was much discussion on another list several months ago about this YouTube video: Louis Podesta's "Your Piano Teacher Taught You Wrong" [1][8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPgg3armCI Gary Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University > ----- Original Message ----- Dear Chris, Perhaps 'rolled' chords were common - as you say, there's no early evidence for them which may mean they were not used or if used then not reported. But we do know that other ways of playing chords were reported so why not this one if it were practised? And I see no conflict between being 'informed' and, even, practising historical techniques with enhancing the music: the two are not mutually exclusive. Indeed some might suggest that employing historical technique serves the music and the composers' intentions best and so further enhances the music. Martyn --- On Fri, 16/11/12, Christopher Wilke <[email protected]> wrote: From: Christopher Wilke <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Re/deconstructing Dowland; - and 'rolled' chords To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>, "WALSH STUART" <[email protected]> Cc: "lute" <[email protected]> Date: Friday, 16 November, 2012, 14:28 Martyn, The use of rolled chords, like so many things in early music performance, has to be assigned to the "inconclusive" category. Lack of evidence does not mean lack of practice. For example, the subject is rarely mentioned in modern classical guitar methods even though it is a ubiquitous. Rolling may just have been one of those things that was done without comment. Who knows? As always, our primary concern should not be with how "informed" we are, but whether or not what we do enhances the music. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com ----- Original Message ----- Re [LUTE] Re: Re/deconstructing Dowland; - and 'rolled' chords Friday, 16 November, 2012 13:58 From: "Martyn Hodgson" [9][email protected] To: "WALSH STUART" <[email protected]> Cc: "lute" <[email protected]> Dear Stuart, I agree with you that we need to be wary in our (modern) assessments of many of these works. For example, some of these lute 'solos', both by Dowland and other lute playing composers, may be lute parts to a consort or a duet and can seem strangely incomplete whilst still fooling modern editors (eg Holborne's 'The Cradle' in Dd.2.11. - noted on page 8 of the recent Lute Society edition), so we need to be careful before discarding them onto the scrap heap of musical spam. I'm also uneasy of imposing our ideas of what was the 'right' harmonic practice at the time: 'crude' harmonies might be as much a stylistic trait as a sign of compositional rudeness. Regarding 'rolled' chords also raised in this thread, these seem to be (too?) ubiquitous in this repertoire nowadays and early sources (ie pre-17th century) don't generally describe the technique. Only when we get to the French 17th century lute with separe signs and the like is the expectation for such fully upwards arpeggiated chords clear. Even Barley, a perhaps unfairly maligned source, indicates a technique for playing full 6 note chords or open 5 note chords not too far removed from that described by later sources (including Mace and Burwell's teacher as well as by continental instructions), in which the first finger rakes upwards (ie towards the bass) to cover some of the courses whilst the second and third fingers strike the others. I would suggest this was more common than we often suppose nowadays and perhaps led onto the later practice of playing the bass and simultaneously raking up with the first finger - with the possible added sophistication of restriking the highest course or two with the second finger - almost the opposite of a modern 'rolled' chord. Martyn -- References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPgg3armCI 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
