You write that 'A rolled chord is an arpeggio, literally, like a harp,
and these go
back to the Early Renaissance. ' - what's your evidence for this?
Further, what do you mean by this ' A careful analysis of harpsichord
registration indicates that in double manual instruments the plucks
were slightly staggered, or ruffled, to create a slight roll in the
sound. ' How does any analysis of registration inform us that the
plucks of a chord were 'rolled'? - or do you mean that in a poorly
regulated instrument the two rows of jacks may be out of
synchronisation?
MH
--- On Thu, 22/11/12, David Tayler <[email protected]> wrote:
From: David Tayler <[email protected]>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rolled chords
To: "lute" <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, 22 November, 2012, 18:45
A rolled chord is an arpeggio, literally, like a harp, and these go
back to the Early Renaissance. They probably date back to antiquity,
if
one wants to include attempts at reconstructing Lyre style from
world
music sources like the Eritrean Begena. Written out arpeggios
feature
in Mudarra's famous work of course.
A careful analysis of harpsichord registration indicates that in
double
manual instruments the plucks were slightly staggered, or ruffled,
to
create a slight roll in the sound. Any quill strum on a lute or
cittern
of course rolls the chord; the rolling is built-in.
dt
--- On Sat, 11/17/12, Christopher Wilke <[1][email protected]>
wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke <[2][email protected]>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rolled chords
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][email protected]>
Cc: "lute" <[4][email protected]>
Date: Saturday, November 17, 2012, 9:22 AM
Martyn,
I agree with you that there is no evidence for for rolled
chords
before the 17th century. I'm not sure we can translate this
absence
into any pronouncements about performance practice.
Interesting that the subject of rolled chords on piano has
been
brought into this. There are in fact many aspects of 19th century
performance that are in abundance in late19th/early 20th cent.
recordings but never discussed in contemporary treatises. One
finds,
for example, that inegalite was so widespread as to be nearly
ubiquitous, even though it is not often mentioned. I haven't
heard a
single recording or piano roll that features the type of rubato
in
which the left hand truly remains in strict tempo while the right
hand
plays freely around the beat, even though this is often discussed
in
the treatises. Clearly, their ideas regarding "strict tempo" was
highly
subjective and not obliged to use the type of metronomic
exactitude
we
would expect today. Performing this repertoire in strict
adherence
to
contemporary writings would lead to something quite different
than
the
audio recorded record reveals.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][5][email protected]>
To: Christopher Wilke <[2][6][email protected]>
Cc: lute <[3][7][email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 3:36 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rolled chords
Dear Chris,
I'm not sure I agree with you when you write "This lack of
specificity
implies that the signs are merely an indication for a
pre-existing
and
well known practice.". It might equally imply that before this
time
the practice of 'rolled' chords was unusual.
But please don't misunderstand my position: I'm not
categorically
saying that 'rolled' chords were never played pre-17th century;
merely
that there's no historical evidence for the practice (unlike
the
position for such chords in 19th/early 20th century piano
performance).
regards,
Martyn
--- On Fri, 16/11/12, Christopher Wilke
<[1][4][8][email protected]>
wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke <[2][5][9][email protected]>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Rolled chords
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][6][10][email protected]>,
"Gary R.
Boye"
<[4][7][11][email protected]>
Cc: "WALSH STUART" <[5][8][12][email protected]>, "lute"
<[6][9][13][email protected]>
Date: Friday, 16 November, 2012, 18:47
Martyn,
It is very telling that when signs for arpeggiation - i.e.
separee
slashes, the % sign in Kapsberger and others' theorbo music -
are
introduced, they include no information regarding speed or
rhythm.
This
lack of specificity implies that the signs are merely an
indication
for
a pre-existing and well known practice. How long the practice
was
in
existence and in what precise guise it was used is, as I said
before,
inconclusive. Few would argue today that because indications
for
articulation or dynamics are rare in much early written music,
one
should refrain from playing with either. (I said, "few would
argue...". Some still do.)
Perrine's suggestions for rhythmicizing separee ciphers is the
exception that proves the rule. My suspicion is that these may
not
be
a
literal record of contemporary lutenists' performance practice.
Rather,
he was probably attempting to show keyboard players how to
approximate
an idiomatic lute effect via the resources of a different
medium.
There
is a parallel in the piano works of 19th century Spanish
composers
like
Albeniz and Granados, who often evoked guitar rasgueados with
fast
arpeggiated figures. These works in transcription have become
mainstays
of modern guitar repertoire and this brings up another
manifestation
of
the "composer's intentions" issue. Should guitarists slavishly
reproduce as many of the written notes of the piano score as
exactly
as
possible, or can "strummy" gestures be replaced with bona fide
rasgueados? What would the composer want? Even in these
comparatively
recent works, we really don't have an answer.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Martyn Hodgson <[7][10][14][email protected]>
To: Gary R. Boye [1][8][11][15][email protected]
Maybe they were - it's just strange that other methods are
reported
on
the lute but this one not....
regards
Martyn
--- On Fri, 16/11/12, Gary R. Boye
<[2][9][12][16][email protected]>
wrote:
From: Gary R. Boye <[3][10][13][17][email protected]>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Rolled chords
To: "Christopher Wilke"
<[4][11][14][18][email protected]>
Cc: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[5][12][15][19][email protected]>,
"WALSH
STUART"
<[6][13][16][20][email protected]>, "lute"
<[7][14][17][21][email protected]>
Date: Friday, 16 November, 2012, 15:38
Chris,
Interesting that you should bring up rolled chords; there was
much
discussion on another list several months ago about this
YouTube
video:
Louis Podesta's "Your Piano Teacher Taught You Wrong"
[1][8][15][18][22]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPgg3armCI
Gary
Dr. Gary R. Boye
Professor and Music Librarian
Appalachian State University
> ----- Original Message -----
Dear Chris,
Perhaps 'rolled' chords were common - as you say, there's no
early
evidence for them which may mean they were not used or if used
then
not
reported. But we do know that other ways of playing chords
were
reported so why not this one if it were practised?
And I see no conflict between being 'informed' and, even,
practising
historical techniques with enhancing the music: the two are not
mutually exclusive. Indeed some might suggest that employing
historical
technique serves the music and the composers' intentions best
and
so
further enhances the music.
Martyn
--- On Fri, 16/11/12, Christopher Wilke
<[16][19][23][email protected]>
wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke <[17][20][24][email protected]>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Re/deconstructing Dowland; - and
'rolled'
chords
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[18][21][25][email protected]>,
"WALSH
STUART"
<[19][22][26][email protected]>
Cc: "lute" <[20][23][27][email protected]>
Date: Friday, 16 November, 2012, 14:28
Martyn,
The use of rolled chords, like so many things in early
music
performance, has to be assigned to the "inconclusive" category.
Lack
of
evidence does not mean lack of practice. For example, the
subject
is
rarely mentioned in modern classical guitar methods even though
it
is
a
ubiquitous. Rolling may just have been one of those things that
was
done without comment.
Who knows? As always, our primary concern should not be
with
how
"informed" we are, but whether or not what we do enhances the
music.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
----- Original Message -----
Re [LUTE] Re: Re/deconstructing Dowland; - and 'rolled' chords
Friday, 16 November, 2012 13:58
From: "Martyn Hodgson" [9][21][24][28][email protected]
To: "WALSH STUART" <[22][25][29][email protected]>
Cc: "lute" <[23][26][30][email protected]>
Dear Stuart,
I agree with you that we need to be wary in our (modern)
assessments
of many of these works.
For example, some of these lute 'solos', both by Dowland
and
other
lute playing composers, may be lute parts to a consort or a
duet
and
can seem strangely incomplete whilst still fooling modern
editors
(eg
Holborne's 'The Cradle' in Dd.2.11. - noted on page 8 of
the
recent
Lute Society edition), so we need to be careful before
discarding
them
onto the scrap heap of musical spam. I'm also uneasy of
imposing
our
ideas of what was the 'right' harmonic practice at the
time:
'crude'
harmonies might be as much a stylistic trait as a sign of
compositional
rudeness.
Regarding 'rolled' chords also raised in this thread, these
seem
to
be
(too?) ubiquitous in this repertoire nowadays and early
sources
(ie
pre-17th century) don't generally describe the technique.
Only
when
we
get to the French 17th century lute with separe signs and
the
like
is
the expectation for such fully upwards arpeggiated chords
clear.
Even
Barley, a perhaps unfairly maligned source, indicates a
technique
for
playing full 6 note chords or open 5 note chords not too
far
removed
from that described by later sources (including Mace and
Burwell's
teacher as well as by continental instructions), in which
the
first
finger rakes upwards (ie towards the bass) to cover some of
the
courses whilst the second and third fingers strike the others.
I
would
suggest this was more common than we often suppose nowadays and
perhaps
led onto the later practice of playing the bass and
simultaneously
raking up with the first finger - with the possible added
sophistication of restriking the highest course or two with
the
second
finger - almost the opposite of a modern 'rolled' chord.
Martyn
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[30][33][37]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
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8. [31][34][38]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPgg3armCI
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15. [51][55]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPgg3armCI
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24. mailto:[60][64][email protected]
25.
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27.
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29.
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[66][70]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
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31. [67][71]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPgg3armCI
32.
[68][72]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@y
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40. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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98. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
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100. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
101. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
102. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
103. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
104. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
105. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
106. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
107. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPgg3armCI
108. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
109. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
110. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
111. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
112. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
113. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
114. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
115. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
116. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
117. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
118. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
119. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
120. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
121. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
122. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
123. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
124. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPgg3armCI
125. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
126. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
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128. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
129. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
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131. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
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133. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
134. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
135. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
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137. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
138. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
139. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
140. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPgg3armCI
141. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
142. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
