Martyn,
I agree with you that there is no evidence for for rolled chords
before the 17th century. I'm not sure we can translate this absence
into any pronouncements about performance practice.
Interesting that the subject of rolled chords on piano has been
brought into this. There are in fact many aspects of 19th century
performance that are in abundance in late19th/early 20th cent.
recordings but never discussed in contemporary treatises. One finds,
for example, that inegalite was so widespread as to be nearly
ubiquitous, even though it is not often mentioned. I haven't heard a
single recording or piano roll that features the type of rubato in
which the left hand truly remains in strict tempo while the right hand
plays freely around the beat, even though this is often discussed in
the treatises. Clearly, their ideas regarding "strict tempo" was highly
subjective and not obliged to use the type of metronomic exactitude we
would expect today. Performing this repertoire in strict adherence to
contemporary writings would lead to something quite different than the
audio recorded record reveals.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]>
To: Christopher Wilke <[email protected]>
Cc: lute <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 3:36 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rolled chords
Dear Chris,
I'm not sure I agree with you when you write "This lack of
specificity
implies that the signs are merely an indication for a pre-existing
and
well known practice.". It might equally imply that before this time
the practice of 'rolled' chords was unusual.
But please don't misunderstand my position: I'm not categorically
saying that 'rolled' chords were never played pre-17th century;
merely
that there's no historical evidence for the practice (unlike the
position for such chords in 19th/early 20th century piano
performance).
regards,
Martyn
--- On Fri, 16/11/12, Christopher Wilke <[1][email protected]>
wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke <[2][email protected]>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Rolled chords
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][email protected]>, "Gary R. Boye"
<[4][email protected]>
Cc: "WALSH STUART" <[5][email protected]>, "lute"
<[6][email protected]>
Date: Friday, 16 November, 2012, 18:47
Martyn,
It is very telling that when signs for arpeggiation - i.e. separee
slashes, the % sign in Kapsberger and others' theorbo music - are
introduced, they include no information regarding speed or rhythm.
This
lack of specificity implies that the signs are merely an indication
for
a pre-existing and well known practice. How long the practice was in
existence and in what precise guise it was used is, as I said before,
inconclusive. Few would argue today that because indications for
articulation or dynamics are rare in much early written music, one
should refrain from playing with either. (I said, "few would
argue...". Some still do.)
Perrine's suggestions for rhythmicizing separee ciphers is the
exception that proves the rule. My suspicion is that these may not be
a
literal record of contemporary lutenists' performance practice.
Rather,
he was probably attempting to show keyboard players how to
approximate
an idiomatic lute effect via the resources of a different medium.
There
is a parallel in the piano works of 19th century Spanish composers
like
Albeniz and Granados, who often evoked guitar rasgueados with fast
arpeggiated figures. These works in transcription have become
mainstays
of modern guitar repertoire and this brings up another manifestation
of
the "composer's intentions" issue. Should guitarists slavishly
reproduce as many of the written notes of the piano score as exactly
as
possible, or can "strummy" gestures be replaced with bona fide
rasgueados? What would the composer want? Even in these comparatively
recent works, we really don't have an answer.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Martyn Hodgson <[7][email protected]>
To: Gary R. Boye [1][8][email protected]
Maybe they were - it's just strange that other methods are reported
on
the lute but this one not....
regards
Martyn
--- On Fri, 16/11/12, Gary R. Boye <[2][9][email protected]>
wrote:
From: Gary R. Boye <[3][10][email protected]>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Rolled chords
To: "Christopher Wilke" <[4][11][email protected]>
Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[5][12][email protected]>, "WALSH
STUART"
<[6][13][email protected]>, "lute"
<[7][14][email protected]>
Date: Friday, 16 November, 2012, 15:38
Chris,
Interesting that you should bring up rolled chords; there was much
discussion on another list several months ago about this YouTube
video:
Louis Podesta's "Your Piano Teacher Taught You Wrong"
[1][8][15]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPgg3armCI
Gary
Dr. Gary R. Boye
Professor and Music Librarian
Appalachian State University
> ----- Original Message -----
Dear Chris,
Perhaps 'rolled' chords were common - as you say, there's no early
evidence for them which may mean they were not used or if used then
not
reported. But we do know that other ways of playing chords were
reported so why not this one if it were practised?
And I see no conflict between being 'informed' and, even, practising
historical techniques with enhancing the music: the two are not
mutually exclusive. Indeed some might suggest that employing
historical
technique serves the music and the composers' intentions best and so
further enhances the music.
Martyn
--- On Fri, 16/11/12, Christopher Wilke <[16][email protected]>
wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke <[17][email protected]>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Re/deconstructing Dowland; - and 'rolled'
chords
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[18][email protected]>, "WALSH
STUART"
<[19][email protected]>
Cc: "lute" <[20][email protected]>
Date: Friday, 16 November, 2012, 14:28
Martyn,
The use of rolled chords, like so many things in early music
performance, has to be assigned to the "inconclusive" category. Lack
of
evidence does not mean lack of practice. For example, the subject is
rarely mentioned in modern classical guitar methods even though it is
a
ubiquitous. Rolling may just have been one of those things that was
done without comment.
Who knows? As always, our primary concern should not be with how
"informed" we are, but whether or not what we do enhances the music.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
----- Original Message -----
Re [LUTE] Re: Re/deconstructing Dowland; - and 'rolled' chords
Friday, 16 November, 2012 13:58
From: "Martyn Hodgson" [9][21][email protected]
To: "WALSH STUART" <[22][email protected]>
Cc: "lute" <[23][email protected]>
Dear Stuart,
I agree with you that we need to be wary in our (modern)
assessments
of many of these works.
For example, some of these lute 'solos', both by Dowland and
other
lute playing composers, may be lute parts to a consort or a duet and
can seem strangely incomplete whilst still fooling modern editors (eg
Holborne's 'The Cradle' in Dd.2.11. - noted on page 8 of the
recent
Lute Society edition), so we need to be careful before
discarding
them
onto the scrap heap of musical spam. I'm also uneasy of imposing
our
ideas of what was the 'right' harmonic practice at the time:
'crude'
harmonies might be as much a stylistic trait as a sign of
compositional
rudeness.
Regarding 'rolled' chords also raised in this thread, these seem
to
be
(too?) ubiquitous in this repertoire nowadays and early sources
(ie
pre-17th century) don't generally describe the technique. Only
when
we
get to the French 17th century lute with separe signs and the
like
is
the expectation for such fully upwards arpeggiated chords clear.
Even
Barley, a perhaps unfairly maligned source, indicates a technique
for
playing full 6 note chords or open 5 note chords not too far
removed
from that described by later sources (including Mace and
Burwell's
teacher as well as by continental instructions), in which the
first
finger rakes upwards (ie towards the bass) to cover some of the
courses whilst the second and third fingers strike the others. I
would
suggest this was more common than we often suppose nowadays and
perhaps
led onto the later practice of playing the bass and simultaneously
raking up with the first finger - with the possible added
sophistication of restriking the highest course or two with the
second
finger - almost the opposite of a modern 'rolled' chord.
Martyn
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References
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3.
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4.
[27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
5.
[28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
.uk
6.
[29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
7.
[30]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
8. [31]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPgg3armCI
9.
[32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
.uk
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19. mailto:[email protected]
20. mailto:[email protected]
21. mailto:[email protected]
22. mailto:[email protected]
23. mailto:[email protected]
24. mailto:[email protected]
25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
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