Martyn, It is very telling that when signs for arpeggiation - i.e. separee slashes, the % sign in Kapsberger and others' theorbo music - are introduced, they include no information regarding speed or rhythm. This lack of specificity implies that the signs are merely an indication for a pre-existing and well known practice. How long the practice was in existence and in what precise guise it was used is, as I said before, inconclusive. Few would argue today that because indications for articulation or dynamics are rare in much early written music, one should refrain from playing with either. (I said, "few would argue...". Some still do.) Perrine's suggestions for rhythmicizing separee ciphers is the exception that proves the rule. My suspicion is that these may not be a literal record of contemporary lutenists' performance practice. Rather, he was probably attempting to show keyboard players how to approximate an idiomatic lute effect via the resources of a different medium. There is a parallel in the piano works of 19th century Spanish composers like Albeniz and Granados, who often evoked guitar rasgueados with fast arpeggiated figures. These works in transcription have become mainstays of modern guitar repertoire and this brings up another manifestation of the "composer's intentions" issue. Should guitarists slavishly reproduce as many of the written notes of the piano score as exactly as possible, or can "strummy" gestures be replaced with bona fide rasgueados? What would the composer want? Even in these comparatively recent works, we really don't have an answer. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]> To: Gary R. Boye <[email protected]> Maybe they were - it's just strange that other methods are reported on the lute but this one not.... regards Martyn --- On Fri, 16/11/12, Gary R. Boye <[1][email protected]> wrote: From: Gary R. Boye <[2][email protected]> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Rolled chords To: "Christopher Wilke" <[3][email protected]> Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[4][email protected]>, "WALSH STUART" <[5][email protected]>, "lute" <[6][email protected]> Date: Friday, 16 November, 2012, 15:38 Chris, Interesting that you should bring up rolled chords; there was much discussion on another list several months ago about this YouTube video: Louis Podesta's "Your Piano Teacher Taught You Wrong" [1][7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPgg3armCI Gary Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 11/16/2012 9:28 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: > Martyn, > The use of rolled chords, like so many things in early music > performance, has to be assigned to the "inconclusive" category. Lack of > evidence does not mean lack of practice. For example, the subject is > rarely mentioned in modern classical guitar methods even though it is a > ubiquitous. Rolling may just have been one of those things that was > done without comment. > Who knows? As always, our primary concern should not be with how > "informed" we are, but whether or not what we do enhances the music. > Chris > > Christopher Wilke > Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer > www.christopherwilke.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Martyn Hodgson <[2][8][email protected]> > To: WALSH STUART <[3][9][email protected]> > Cc: lute <[4][10][email protected]> > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:58 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re/deconstructing Dowland; - and 'rolled' chords > Regarding 'rolled' chords also raised in this thread, these seem to > be > (too?) ubiquitous in this repertoire nowadays and early sources (ie > pre-17th century) don't generally describe the technique. Only when > we > get to the French 17th century lute with separe signs and the like is > the expectation for such fully upwards arpeggiated chords clear. Even > Barley, a perhaps unfairly maligned source, indicates a technique for > playing full 6 note chords or open 5 note chords not too far removed > from that described by later sources (including Mace and Burwell's > teacher as well as by continental instructions), in which the first > finger rakes upwards (ie towards the bass) to cover some of the > courses > whilst the second and third fingers strike the others. I would > suggest > this was more common than we often suppose nowadays and perhaps led > onto the later practice of playing the bass and simultaneously raking > up with the first finger - with the possible added sophistication of > restriking the highest course or two with the second finger - almost > the opposite of a modern 'rolled' chord. > Martyn > --- On Thu, 15/11/12, WALSH STUART <[1][5][11][email protected]> wrote: > From: WALSH STUART <[2][6][12][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reconstructing Dowland; deconstructing Dowland > To: "David van Ooijen" <[3][7][13][email protected]> > Cc: "lute" <[4][8][14][email protected]> > Date: Thursday, 15 November, 2012, 23:01 > Beautiful playing. I wouldn't have known this was a modern > reconstruction. But I don't know the music well and I haven't > listened > to Dowland in a long time and I don't try and play the music. > But I'm very, very surprised (and intrigued and amused) that it > needs > reconstruction, DIY or otherwise. Two questions: > a) where does this idea leave all the great performances of > Dowland > and > those CD compilations of the complete works? Lindberg, North. > O'Dette, > Chris Wilson etc. They simply didn't notice any fundamental > issues > with > the music? > b) is Dowland's music uniquely flawed? (needs extra parts, needs > cliched florid bits excised, need voice-leading corrected etc). > Dowland > is often posed as the pinnacle of Renaissance lute music. If > the > sources of his music is fundamentally compromised, where does > that > leave all the other lute music of the Renaissance? Does it all > need > a > bit of modern polishing into shape too? > (and how is a modern person somehow seeing through the sources to > what > Dowland would have wanted beyond the abundant evidence of what > people > at the time physically recorded in the tablatures?) > Stuart > On 15 November 2012 22:07, David van Ooijen > <[1][1][5][9][15][email protected]> wrote: > On 15 November 2012 22:12, WALSH STUART > <[2][2][6][10][16][email protected]> > wrote: > > Well, isn't anyone other than Dan going to reply to this? I > was > > expecting a huge response! > My (two but) latest CD is a response: two 'new' Dowland solos > `a > la > dt, > albeit reconstructed and played by DvO. ;-) > In other words: dt is right, DIY-Dowland is the way to go! > David > I even uploaded both arrangements to YouTube: > [3][3][7][11][17]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > [4][4][8][12][18]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > -- > ******************************* > David van Ooijen > [5][5][9][13][19][email protected] > [6]www.davidvanooijen.nl > ******************************* > To get on or off this list see list information at >
[7][6][10][14][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm l > -- > References > 1. mailto:[7][11][15][21][email protected] > 2. mailto:[8][12][16][22][email protected] > 3. [9][13][17][23]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > 4. [10][14][18][24]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > 5. mailto:[11][15][19][25][email protected] > 6. [12][16][20][26]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > 7. [13][17][21][27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. > [18][22][28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooi jen@ gmai > l.com > 2. > [19][23][29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.walsh@ntlwor ld.c om > 3. [20][24][30]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > 4. [21][25][31]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > 5. > [22][26][32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooi jen@ gmai > l.com > 6. [23][27][33]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 7. > [24][28][34]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooi jen@ gmai > l.com > 8. > [25][29][35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.walsh@ntlwor ld.c om > 9. [26][30][36]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > 10. [27][31][37]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > 11. > [28][32][38]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooi jen@ gmai > l.com > 12. [29][33][39]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > 13. [30][34][40]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:[35][41][email protected] > 2. mailto:[36][42][email protected] > 3. mailto:[37][43][email protected] > 4. mailto:[38][44][email protected] > 5. mailto:[39][45][email protected] > 6. mailto:[40][46][email protected] > 7. [41][47]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > 8. [42][48]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > 9. mailto:[43][49][email protected] > 10. [44][50]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 11. mailto:[45][51][email protected] > 12. mailto:[46][52][email protected] > 13. [47][53]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > 14. [48][54]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > 15. mailto:[49][55][email protected] > 16. [50][56]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > 17. [51][57]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 18. [52][58]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@ gmai l.com > 19. [53][59]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] om > 20. [54][60]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > 21. [55][61]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M > 22. [56][62]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@ gmai l.com > 23. [57][63]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 24. [58][64]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@ gmai l.com > 25. [59][65]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] om > 26. [60][66]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs > 27. 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