More quotes from Don....for fran! :-) http://politicalhumor.about.com/cs/quotethis/a/rumsfeldquotes.htm
On Feb 3, 8:19 am, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > Science is only starting to understand many things about how the brain > (and by extension, consciousness) works and the area is still full of > Rumsfeldians (things we don't know we don't know - man, I love the > logic of that phrase! :-)). Therefore, there's a lot of pure > speculation in thinking here, which is one of the main reasons I > haven't been inclined to participate in threads about dreams and > dreaming here. > > One thing struck me as important, however, when I was formulating the > previous post. Brains are not computers, they are much more powerful, > chaotic and holistic - the same is even more the case for > consciousness. In this sense we should be very cautious about > transferring concepts and language from digital processing, hardware > and software, to the brain and consciousness. Anthropomorphism is a > major problem in many areas of our thinking, we would be only > compunding it by moving on to computomorphism. AI and machine > intelligence may be subjects for the near future, but even should > hardware/software produce some kind of self-aware consciousness (a > real ghost in the machine), this would not entail that it would > necessarily be a model for understanding human consciousness better. > > Francis > > On 3 Feb., 14:05, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On 3 Feb, 12:21, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Slip. I incline to a more traditional, conventional explanatation for > > > dreams. I see them primarily as a sorting and organising process for > > > our consciousness.A lot of what has happened between two periods of > > > sleep has been (temporarily) stored by our brains, not just > > > experiences, but feelings, thoughts, memories and memories of > > > experiences and memories. Temporary connections have been forged. Our > > > consciousness, however, will not retain all of this. > > > > REM-Sleep and dreams are part of the process where consciousness > > > structures this and dumps much which will not be retained. Dreams are > > > the (more or, more often, less) conscious experiencing of this sorting > > > out process. > > > I'm not so sure of that. I remember being awakened from a VERY > > DEEP sleep and actually gained waking consciousness BEFORE I was able > > to break off from what my mind was doing in the 'deep sleep' process > > and I 'caught' my brain going through the days events at break-neck > > speed. Whilst going through the day's events, I would decide whether > > or not I wanted to remember the event and, if I did, I would associate > > it with other memories to give me more than one pathway back to it. > > THIS is that processing routine of which you speak and it occurs in > > deep sleep not REM. Personally, I think REM sleep and dreams are more > > likely a way of spending leisure time when one is asleep (to think > > that all our sleep time is work-related (that is, related to processes > > that are required for health) would be incorrect). The processes that > > are required for reviewing short-term memory and downloading some of > > it into medium-term to long-term memory are done without access to > > dream-meanderings because, otherwise, they would creep into one's > > reality (perhaps schizophrenics aren't able to keep that particular > > curtain up??). I think dreams are more us just posing 'what if' > > scenarios to ourselves and watching them play out. Of course, there > > is more than one kind of dream, as well. Revelatory dreams (dreams in > > which we gain verifiable data) are the ones that seemingly break all > > the rules and make me thing that we CAN tap into a reservoir of data > > (implying that such a reservoir exists) and learn things we otherwise > > COULDN'T. > > > > This is not to deny their importance. Vividly remembered dreams are > > > signals about things which are really concerning or preoccupying us, > > > in positive as well as negative ways. They can often guide us to > > > issues, ideas and feelings which concern us, which are not always > > > available or clear to our waking consciousness. But we should be > > > careful, in my view, towards ascribing too much meaning to specific > > > images or incidents in dreams; they are, by their very nature, a > > > higgeldy-piggeldy mixture of all sorts, with many co-incidental > > > connections, very like what would happen if I simply dumped out some > > > of the drawers I have in my desk, or kitchen, where everything under > > > the "to be sorted later" label lands, on the floor. There is then, no > > > significance about the fact that a rubber band has wound itself around > > > a battery which is lying on a postcard from an old acquaintance, which > > > I still hadn't decided to throw away. > > > > Daniel C. Dennett, with his model of multi-draft consciousness, has > > > some interesting explanations in his writings on the subject. > > > > On 3 Feb., 10:51, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Good to see you back Frank. Thanks again for the interpretation. Try > > > > the one about the river, the snake, the mountain, the room. Molly > > > > seemed to have some insight on it. (see below) > > > > > There are strange occurrences in dreams that leave us in a state of > > > > awe at times delving deep for interpretation. What usually strikes me > > > > most in my dreams are situations that are really bazaar and > > > > unaccounted for in consciousness, the people I've never met and the > > > > places I've never been. Regardless of the lucidity of dreams, some > > > > are obviously very symbolic with unimaginable situations and objects, > > > > like flying, clowns and the transformation of inanimate objects to > > > > real life beings. I haven't paid much attention to dreams as of late > > > > due to a Sciatica attack that has had me on heavy medication for the > > > > past two weeks, I feel like I'm in a daze and can't really function > > > > well, my equilibrium is imbalanced, my thoughts are fragmented and > > > > I've lost continuity of focus. > > > > > Still I value my dreams and try to piece them together. Dreams are > > > > not part of the real world but a realm all unto it's own. That is why > > > > I hypothesized on quantum dream travel, if it is not happening in my > > > > conscious world then it is happening somewhere else. People tend to > > > > think of dreams as being weird or strange without the slightest > > > > consideration of how strange the world we live in is. I look around > > > > and see a world that if represented in someone's dream a thousand > > > > years ago, would be considered a very powerful dream, weird and > > > > strange. We take for granted the strange world in which we live. > > > > Therefore, I must accept the possibility that we are traveling in our > > > > dreams to a parallel universe or somewhere here within our own world > > > > via the quantum travel theory. How else could I dream of being > > > > amongst orientals on a beach with ancient architecture around me, > > > > another place in another time? > > > > > I don't know that it would be possible to conduct experiments to > > > > establish the viability of such a theory as dreams are still not > > > > available to anyone but the dreamer and totally unique to the > > > > dreamer's subconscious and unconscious world. I wouldn't say that all > > > > dreams are connected to the dreamers reality due to the dreams that I > > > > have had where no physical body was present but just a consciousness. > > > > In this type of dream I may be connecting to another persons > > > > consciousness in their reality, or actually connecting to that persons > > > > subconscious dream state and witnessing that persons dream, again > > > > regardless of the lucidity of the dream. Remember if you have no way > > > > of identifying yourself in your dream then you really don't know for > > > > sure that it is your dream. Perhaps I, personally, was not on a > > > > beach with orientals but in my dream state I connected with someone > > > > who was on the beach with orientals. I wonder sometimes if it is > > > > possible for a persons thoughts, or dreams, to become part of a mesh > > > > of energy that remains in tack for years only to be received by > > > > someone later on, in thought or dream form. Like radio or other type > > > > of wave that travels throughout our galaxy. > > > > > Therefore when interpreting a dream it must be taken into account that > > > > it may in fact not even be a dream but a connection to another > > > > reality, or subconscious. A dream may have absolutely nothing to do > > > > with the dreamer. Example is a dream I had years ago about jumping > > > > into a taxi late afternoon, I don't know that it is really me because > > > > I can't see myself in the mirror and there are no other details to > > > > identify with, suddenly it starts to get dark and the taxi is driving > > > > in the wrong direction and suddenly pulls over in a ghetto > > > > neighborhood. Hoodlums with knives and guns approach the car and > > > > drag (me) out trying to take my wallet and roughing with me. My heart > > > > is pounding I start to run, I hear gun shots and wake up, my heart is > > > > pounding and I'm gasping for breath. > > > > > Was it me in the dream, was it someone else in the dream, was it > > > > something that was happening that moment or something that happened > > > > in the past, or was it someone's dream that I intercepted? > > > > It is possible that an actual person took a cab and was driven by the > > > > driver to a place where he could be robbed and the driver and the > > > > hoodlums were part of a group of thieves? The intensity of the > > > > persons fear sent massive amounts of energy into the cosmos for me to > > > > pick up while I was sleeping. However, the first interpretation might > > > > be that the incident represented my own fears about something and the > > > > taxi represents the etc...............you see where I'm going with > > > > this. > > > > > The dreams and quantum travel thread opens up new > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
