...or of course, being declared dead, and then being resuscitated. On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]>wrote:
> I think those "mini-fugues" you achieve on limited sleep and coffee are > most definitely small scale versions of the "spiritual states" you are > referring to. > Much of the modern resurgence in non-Christian western spirituality is > influenced is influenced by various cultures who much to say about the > topic. Most of these cultures were shamanic in nature, and made use of > psychoactive substances in order to achieve "spiritual transcendence". The > use of these substances as sacrament has been a cultural tradition for as > long as humankind has existed. The only religions which don't are those > which prescribe various forms of asceticism, sadism, or masochism, all which > in suitable form can release the the cocktail in question. > > The "Spiritual Experience" is the most intense, amazing, transcendent > hallucinogenic experience a human can have. That process has been > philosophized and analyzed at length by great minds such as Hoffman, Leary, > Castaneta, and others. The non-random nature of classes of hallucinogens > allows those states to be of use in guided meditation. They serve purpose in > ritual. By disconnecting logical thought processes from the normal channels > of perception, the shaman is forced to face their subconscious. This is a > journey repeated through out all shamanic traditions. > > In much of the Western New Age movement, elements of shamanic tradition, > especially Far Eastern and Native American traditions, have been > incorporated into the philosophies, but the psychoactive elements have all > been removed. Three days of fasting on nothing but pemmican and water, while > walking through the desert, followed by a night of peyote tea, is sure to > guarantee a night spent in journey with the Great Spirit. > > That was probably un-necessary history I'm sure, but I wanted to drive home > the fact that it's really only the very modern groups that tell you you can > just pop right out if you try hard enough. Almost everyone else prescribes a > tea, a mushroom, flogging yourself with a whip til you bleed, flogging > someone else with a whip til they bleed, or spending a year on a mountain > top drinking water and eating a half cup of rice a day. > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Yes I can imagine that accomplishing that state of OBE on one's own >> initiative is quite the feat but I'm sure that it's been realized by >> some. I've heard of triathlon participants at or near serious >> dehydration levels experiencing a similar state. I know for me the >> experience was life changing and still there are days that spend >> considerable time reflecting upon it. I can't say that the outcome of >> returning has been all that positive as far as short term memory and >> overall recall, not to mention a significant loss in pulmonary >> ability. There are days of highlighted cerebral activity and others >> where I'm not sure who I am after 2 cups of coffee. It's a strange >> existence but it still works for me and I'm able to spend time yaking >> away in here, so that 's good. I've been dreaming very heavily this >> week and trying to peace together meanings if any. There is a lot >> going on out there in the beyond. >> >> On Feb 16, 4:41 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: >> > ;) You're not getting my DMT levels too high...and you left out >> Ketamine! >> > What I'm merely stating is that it's not too difficult to understand >> what an >> > OBE is, nor to have one anytime you feel like. Accomplishing that state >> by >> > producing your own DMT is quite a feat, but given what I've seen well >> > trained athletes and martial artists accomplish in altering their >> metabolism >> > on command, I don't have problem believing it's possible. >> > >> > " I believe there to be a >> > spontaneity aspect of OBE that occurs during spiritual and dream >> > states without any influence from DMT." >> > >> > While you're dreaming? Well blood hell, of course. I can also fly while >> I'm >> > dreaming, certainly don't need DMT for that. As for "spiritual states", >> I'm >> > not quite sure what you mean by that. If you're talking about being >> awake >> > and in some sort of trance, I'd refer you back to those chemical >> > cocktails...there's loads of research that's quite easy to find on what >> > exactly is going on in the brain in those kinds of "spiritual >> states"...and >> > ruling out DMT, or one of a small handful of other neurochemicals, would >> be >> > a misunderstanding of the processes at play in the brain. >> > >> > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > Easy now Bubba, don't get your DMT level up too high!! I didn't say >> > > it was difficult to understand, it's just that you are making a direct >> > > link seemingly (from my fundamentally vacant mental state) discounting >> > > any other cause for OBE, possibly the insinuation was also on my part, >> > > but I did think that your insinuation was that OBE was only attainable >> > > through DMT. Technically OBE's are associated with NDE's but they >> > > are not exclusively confined to that mode. I believe there to be a >> > > spontaneity aspect of OBE that occurs during spiritual and dream >> > > states without any influence from DMT. >> > > I do understand that you are being supportive of my post when you are >> > > saying that DMT had most likely a great influence on my personal >> > > experience and I agree with that assessment, however, there are other >> > > means of inducing OBE, such as Meditative techniques, Mental and >> > > Mechanical induction, the Mind Awake Body Asleep state (used by Thomas >> > > Edison), Etc............what I'm saying is that triggers other than >> > > DMT, Dextromethorphan, PCP, and the newest Salvia Divinorum exist. >> > >> > > On Feb 16, 2:19 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > > I'm not insinuating, I'm stating for the record. >> > > > 1. DMT produces an effect that is similar in nature for all users, >> > > differing >> > > > only in the perception of the user. It typically begins with the >> user >> > > > feeling that they are floating out of their body, up towards the >> ceiling, >> > > > having the impression they are seeing their body and the room, then >> being >> > > > drawn towards a tunnel of some sort, passing through the tunnel, >> into a >> > > > different place which can either be described as "heaven", "hell", >> or >> > > some >> > > > other type of mythical environment, where they often encounter >> "angel", >> > > > "demons", "fairies", "aliens", or there supernatural entities, and >> at the >> > > > end of said experience, they are drawn back into their bodies. >> > >> > > > 2. DMT is naturally produced in the human body, and its production >> spikes >> > > > during times of extreme duress, most notably near and at death. >> > >> > > > What's difficult to understand about this? >> > >> > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > > > > I guess you are insinuating that out of body, astral and other are >> > > > > only affects attainable through DMT. There have been documented >> > > > > stories of people clinically pronounced dead then regaining >> > > > > consciousness that remember seeing themselves laying in the >> hospital >> > > > > bed. These days with advances in cardiac resuscitation the >> incidences >> > > > > of death and near death experiences are increasing along with >> stories >> > > > > of the beyond. I myself experienced lung collapse due to >> pneumonia, >> > > > > of which I was unaware of but perceived to be another back ache >> and >> > > > > which I further exacerbated by treating it with muscle relaxants, >> > > > > thereby allowing the pneumonia to progress to the point of the >> > > > > collapse. >> > >> > > > > On Feb 16, 9:20 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > > > > > Slip Disc, there's no reason to dismiss it, when it's been well >> > > > > documented, >> > > > > > and fully explained. >> > > > > > Google "effects of DiMethylTryptamine". >> > >> > > > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> >> > > wrote: >> > >> > > > > > > We can't dismiss the possibility of out of body experience and >> the >> > > > > > > occurrence of other phenomena in the death experience, based >> upon >> > > > > > > death in the sleep mode. Coming from you Pat, I'm a bit >> dismayed as >> > > > > > > you should have the wherewithal to explain it better than I. >> > > However, >> > > > > > > I can relay a portion of my experience within a coma at which >> time >> > > I >> > > > > > > did know I was dying, so even in the subconscious mind there >> is >> > > > > > > "awareness" of death. Would you rather be awake watching >> yourself >> > > die >> > > > > > > or be a floating apparition watching yourself sleep? Aside >> from >> > > that >> > > > > > > we can't be sure that a person who dies sleeping was actually >> in >> > > fact >> > > > > > > sleeping by all outward appearances. One could be too weak to >> open >> > > > > > > the eyes but be very well aware of the people standing around >> and >> > > the >> > > > > > > impending cross over into the afterlife. >> > >> > > > > > > On Feb 16, 6:39 am, Pat <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > > > > > > > On 16 Feb, 01:17, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > > > > > > > What you say is true. There is no assurances, but I'd >> still be >> > > > > > > > > willing to bet my life on it being more comfortable or at >> the >> > > least >> > > > > > > > > aware. That is my greatest desire to be cogently aware >> of >> > > what's >> > > > > > > > > going on as it happens. I'd give up calm and peace for >> > > awareness. >> > > > > > > > > Though I must say your fur coat in hunting season approach >> has >> > > it's >> > > > > > > > > points. >> > >> > > > > > > > You and me both, Gruff. I want to know when it's coming. >> The >> > > LAST >> > > > > > > > thing I want to do is to die in my sleep: how will I know >> I'm >> > > dead? >> > > > > > > > Especially if there IS and aftertime. Of course, if there >> isn't, >> > > > > then >> > > > > > > > it won't matter; but I'd still prefer to know that the time >> is >> > > coming >> > > > > > > > so I can acknowledge the end of my life. But, whatever >> happens, >> > > it >> > > > > > > > will be that which is required to happen and my desires and >> > > > > > > > preferences are, most likely, irrelevant. >> > >> > > > > > > > > On Feb 15, 11:06 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Who is to say that your suicidal method will assure more >> > > comfort >> > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > exclude any and all instances of panic, including but >> not >> > > limited >> > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > subconscious awareness of self induced destruction >> leading to >> > > a >> > > > > > > > > > struggle out of simple survival instinct, which may no >> longer >> > > be >> > > > > > > > > > optional to the conscious mind after succumbing to the >> > > > > inducement. >> > > > > > > > > > The body may react violently to fight off the inducement >> and >> > > > > appear >> > > > > > > as >> > > > > > > > > > if in a state of turmoil or torment. We may imagine a >> drug >> > > > > induced >> > > > > > > > > > demise to be passive but can not identify with the >> > > subconscious >> > > > > as >> > > > > > > > > > what is exactly going on. This is a controversial >> subject >> > > > > concerning >> > > > > > > > > > the use of lethal injection in criminal death penalty >> cases. >> > > > > > > > > > Personally I would opt to wear a fur coat in a densely >> wooded >> > > > > area >> > > > > > > > > > during hunting season and make loud grunting sounds.- >> Hide >> > > quoted >> > > > > > > text - >> > >> > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - >> >> >> > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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