A very Sufi post, my friend. On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 3:06 AM, Vamadevananda <[email protected]>wrote:
> > Chris, SD ! As I know of it, the whole truth ... the ONE ... is > indescribable. This may cliche but it's important that I start with > this. It is also linked with the this discussion on our finite and > infinite nature, elsewhere. > > IT is the SELF, unidentified with anything, beyond this family > ( ancestors, wife, children ... ) - nationality - race related > identity we so easily take on, beyond this possession - linked > identity we so commonly have, beyond this body - centered identity > that is so pathologically ours, beyond this feeling - thought - > imagination we are so automatically attached with, beyond this > knowledge - awareness being we take ourselves to be ... beyond the > least variation and differences in our vision, the WHOLE without parts > or difference, the ONE without a second or another ... ... not > ( just ) this body, not ( just ) this mind ( and intellect ). > > The WHOLE is in our mind. The parts are in our mind. This is a > logically flawed mind. For the WHOLE cannot be ( in the mind ) untill > the mind is without the least awareness of the parts ( in the mind ). > The Self is everything ... covered with bliss ( the source of ego ), > with knowledge ( in the intellect ), with thought ( in the mind ), > with feelings ( in the nerves ), with life ( in the senses ), with > action ( in the body ), with companionship ( in the company of > others ), with richness or possessions ( in the world ) ... And, yet, > this very Self is beyond it all. IT is the WHOLE. > > Chris, we are this Self. THIS Self is ONE. We are not mere bio - > chemical truths. Bio - chemistry and evolution are a manifestation of > this very Self we each are ! > > There is so much more I may yet say. But, what is in my attention > right now is the Estimation software demo I have just attended. I am > pressed for taking forward my attempts to awaken this leviathan that > has hired me ! And, sure, I will. > > Forgive me for the babble. > > > > > > On Feb 17, 11:41 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > Do you dare to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, > > so help you Zod? > > > > On Feb 16, 10:47 pm, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > There is much in your posts that agrees with my experience, Chris. > > > Except that ... even all of that isn't the whole truth ! > > > > > On Feb 17, 8:42 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > One other note on this: > > > > The idea of heaven or hell I think was best explored in the movie > 'Waking > > > > Life': > > > > > >http://www.foxstore.com/detail.php?item=438 > > > > > > The movie posits that heaven or hell is the experience as you die, > your > > > > final second stretching into eternity as your perception of time > ceases to > > > > be. Thus, as your DMT production spikes, and your prefrontal > processes are > > > > disconnected from sensory inputs which are shutting down, your > logical > > > > processes are left with only your subconscious in the final moments > before > > > > death. All joys, regrets, guilts, achievements, pride, love, are all > indexed > > > > in that final moment, and the angels or demons that await you in your > DMT > > > > tunnel are entirely of your own creation. > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Chris Jenkins > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > I think those "mini-fugues" you achieve on limited sleep and coffee > are > > > > > most definitely small scale versions of the "spiritual states" you > are > > > > > referring to. > > > > > Much of the modern resurgence in non-Christian western spirituality > is > > > > > influenced is influenced by various cultures who much to say about > the > > > > > topic. Most of these cultures were shamanic in nature, and made use > of > > > > > psychoactive substances in order to achieve "spiritual > transcendence". The > > > > > use of these substances as sacrament has been a cultural tradition > for as > > > > > long as humankind has existed. The only religions which don't are > those > > > > > which prescribe various forms of asceticism, sadism, or masochism, > all which > > > > > in suitable form can release the the cocktail in question. > > > > > > > The "Spiritual Experience" is the most intense, amazing, > transcendent > > > > > hallucinogenic experience a human can have. That process has been > > > > > philosophized and analyzed at length by great minds such as > Hoffman, Leary, > > > > > Castaneta, and others. The non-random nature of classes of > hallucinogens > > > > > allows those states to be of use in guided meditation. They serve > purpose in > > > > > ritual. By disconnecting logical thought processes from the normal > channels > > > > > of perception, the shaman is forced to face their subconscious. > This is a > > > > > journey repeated through out all shamanic traditions. > > > > > > > In much of the Western New Age movement, elements of shamanic > tradition, > > > > > especially Far Eastern and Native American traditions, have been > > > > > incorporated into the philosophies, but the psychoactive elements > have all > > > > > been removed. Three days of fasting on nothing but pemmican and > water, while > > > > > walking through the desert, followed by a night of peyote tea, is > sure to > > > > > guarantee a night spent in journey with the Great Spirit. > > > > > > > That was probably un-necessary history I'm sure, but I wanted to > drive home > > > > > the fact that it's really only the very modern groups that tell you > you can > > > > > just pop right out if you try hard enough. Almost everyone else > prescribes a > > > > > tea, a mushroom, flogging yourself with a whip til you bleed, > flogging > > > > > someone else with a whip til they bleed, or spending a year on a > mountain > > > > > top drinking water and eating a half cup of rice a day. > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > >> Yes I can imagine that accomplishing that state of OBE on one's > own > > > > >> initiative is quite the feat but I'm sure that it's been realized > by > > > > >> some. I've heard of triathlon participants at or near serious > > > > >> dehydration levels experiencing a similar state. I know for me > the > > > > >> experience was life changing and still there are days that spend > > > > >> considerable time reflecting upon it. I can't say that the outcome > of > > > > >> returning has been all that positive as far as short term memory > and > > > > >> overall recall, not to mention a significant loss in pulmonary > > > > >> ability. There are days of highlighted cerebral activity and > others > > > > >> where I'm not sure who I am after 2 cups of coffee. It's a strange > > > > >> existence but it still works for me and I'm able to spend time > yaking > > > > >> away in here, so that 's good. I've been dreaming very heavily > this > > > > >> week and trying to peace together meanings if any. There is a lot > > > > >> going on out there in the beyond. > > > > > > >> On Feb 16, 4:41 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > >> > ;) You're not getting my DMT levels too high...and you left out > > > > >> Ketamine! > > > > >> > What I'm merely stating is that it's not too difficult to > understand > > > > >> what an > > > > >> > OBE is, nor to have one anytime you feel like. Accomplishing > that state > > > > >> by > > > > >> > producing your own DMT is quite a feat, but given what I've seen > well > > > > >> > trained athletes and martial artists accomplish in altering > their > > > > >> metabolism > > > > >> > on command, I don't have problem believing it's possible. > > > > > > >> > " I believe there to be a > > > > >> > spontaneity aspect of OBE that occurs during spiritual and dream > > > > >> > states without any influence from DMT." > > > > > > >> > While you're dreaming? Well blood hell, of course. I can also > fly while > > > > >> I'm > > > > >> > dreaming, certainly don't need DMT for that. As for "spiritual > states", > > > > >> I'm > > > > >> > not quite sure what you mean by that. If you're talking about > being > > > > >> awake > > > > >> > and in some sort of trance, I'd refer you back to those chemical > > > > >> > cocktails...there's loads of research that's quite easy to find > on what > > > > >> > exactly is going on in the brain in those kinds of "spiritual > > > > >> states"...and > > > > >> > ruling out DMT, or one of a small handful of other > neurochemicals, would > > > > >> be > > > > >> > a misunderstanding of the processes at play in the brain. > > > > > > >> > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > Easy now Bubba, don't get your DMT level up too high!! I > didn't say > > > > >> > > it was difficult to understand, it's just that you are making > a direct > > > > >> > > link seemingly (from my fundamentally vacant mental state) > discounting > > > > >> > > any other cause for OBE, possibly the insinuation was also on > my part, > > > > >> > > but I did think that your insinuation was that OBE was only > attainable > > > > >> > > through DMT. Technically OBE's are associated with NDE's but > they > > > > >> > > are not exclusively confined to that mode. I believe there to > be a > > > > >> > > spontaneity aspect of OBE that occurs during spiritual and > dream > > > > >> > > states without any influence from DMT. > > > > >> > > I do understand that you are being supportive of my post when > you are > > > > >> > > saying that DMT had most likely a great influence on my > personal > > > > >> > > experience and I agree with that assessment, however, there > are other > > > > >> > > means of inducing OBE, such as Meditative techniques, Mental > and > > > > >> > > Mechanical induction, the Mind Awake Body Asleep state (used > by Thomas > > > > >> > > Edison), Etc............what I'm saying is that triggers other > than > > > > >> > > DMT, Dextromethorphan, PCP, and the newest Salvia Divinorum > exist. > > > > > > >> > > On Feb 16, 2:19 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > >> > > > I'm not insinuating, I'm stating for the record. > > > > >> > > > 1. DMT produces an effect that is similar in nature for all > users, > > > > >> > > differing > > > > >> > > > only in the perception of the user. It typically begins with > the > > > > >> user > > > > >> > > > feeling that they are floating out of their body, up towards > the > > > > >> ceiling, > > > > >> > > > having the impression they are seeing their body and the > room, then > > > > >> being > > > > >> > > > drawn towards a tunnel of some sort, passing through the > tunnel, > > > > >> into a > > > > >> > > > different place which can either be described as "heaven", > "hell", > > > > >> or > > > > >> > > some > > > > >> > > > other type of mythical environment, where they often > encounter > > > > >> "angel", > > > > >> > > > "demons", "fairies", "aliens", or there supernatural > entities, and > > > > >> at the > > > > >> > > > end of said experience, they are drawn back into their > bodies. > > > > > > >> > > > 2. DMT is naturally produced in the human body, and its > production > > > > >> spikes > > > > >> > > > during times of extreme duress, most notably near and at > death. > > > > > > >> > > > What's difficult to understand about this? > > > > > > >> > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Slip Disc < > [email protected]> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > I guess you are insinuating that out of body, astral and > other are > > > > >> > > > > only affects attainable through DMT. There have been > documented > > > > >> > > > > stories of people clinically pronounced dead then > regaining > > > > >> > > > > consciousness that remember seeing themselves laying in > the > > > > >> hospital > > > > >> > > > > bed. These days with advances in cardiac resuscitation > the > > > > >> incidences > > > > >> > > > > of death and near death experiences are increasing along > with > > > > >> stories > > > > >> > > > > of the beyond. I myself experienced lung collapse due to > > > > >> pneumonia, > > > > >> > > > > of which I was unaware of but perceived to be another back > ache > > > > >> and > > > > >> > > > > which I further exacerbated by treating it with muscle > relaxants, > > > > >> > > > > thereby allowing the pneumonia to progress to the point of > the > > > > >> > > > > collapse. > > > > > > >> > > > > On Feb 16, 9:20 am, Chris Jenkins < > [email protected]> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > Slip Disc, there's no reason to dismiss it, when it's > been well > > > > >> > > > > documented, > > > > >> > > > > > and > > > > ... > > > > read more ยป- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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