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There is much in your posts that agrees with my experience, Chris.
Except that ... even all of that isn't the whole truth !
On Feb 17, 8:42 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote:
> One other note on this:
> The idea of heaven or hell I think was best explored in the movie 'Waking
> Life':
>
> http://www.foxstore.com/detail.php?item=438
>
> The movie posits that heaven or hell is the experience as you die, your
> final second stretching into eternity as your perception of time ceases to
> be. Thus, as your DMT production spikes, and your prefrontal processes are
> disconnected from sensory inputs which are shutting down, your logical
> processes are left with only your subconscious in the final moments before
> death. All joys, regrets, guilts, achievements, pride, love, are all indexed
> in that final moment, and the angels or demons that await you in your DMT
> tunnel are entirely of your own creation.
>
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Chris Jenkins
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>
>
> > I think those "mini-fugues" you achieve on limited sleep and coffee are
> > most definitely small scale versions of the "spiritual states" you are
> > referring to.
> > Much of the modern resurgence in non-Christian western spirituality is
> > influenced is influenced by various cultures who much to say about the
> > topic. Most of these cultures were shamanic in nature, and made use of
> > psychoactive substances in order to achieve "spiritual transcendence". The
> > use of these substances as sacrament has been a cultural tradition for as
> > long as humankind has existed. The only religions which don't are those
> > which prescribe various forms of asceticism, sadism, or masochism, all which
> > in suitable form can release the the cocktail in question.
>
> > The "Spiritual Experience" is the most intense, amazing, transcendent
> > hallucinogenic experience a human can have. That process has been
> > philosophized and analyzed at length by great minds such as Hoffman, Leary,
> > Castaneta, and others. The non-random nature of classes of hallucinogens
> > allows those states to be of use in guided meditation. They serve purpose in
> > ritual. By disconnecting logical thought processes from the normal channels
> > of perception, the shaman is forced to face their subconscious. This is a
> > journey repeated through out all shamanic traditions.
>
> > In much of the Western New Age movement, elements of shamanic tradition,
> > especially Far Eastern and Native American traditions, have been
> > incorporated into the philosophies, but the psychoactive elements have all
> > been removed. Three days of fasting on nothing but pemmican and water, while
> > walking through the desert, followed by a night of peyote tea, is sure to
> > guarantee a night spent in journey with the Great Spirit.
>
> > That was probably un-necessary history I'm sure, but I wanted to drive home
> > the fact that it's really only the very modern groups that tell you you can
> > just pop right out if you try hard enough. Almost everyone else prescribes a
> > tea, a mushroom, flogging yourself with a whip til you bleed, flogging
> > someone else with a whip til they bleed, or spending a year on a mountain
> > top drinking water and eating a half cup of rice a day.
>
> > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Yes I can imagine that accomplishing that state of OBE on one's own
> >> initiative is quite the feat but I'm sure that it's been realized by
> >> some. I've heard of triathlon participants at or near serious
> >> dehydration levels experiencing a similar state. I know for me the
> >> experience was life changing and still there are days that spend
> >> considerable time reflecting upon it. I can't say that the outcome of
> >> returning has been all that positive as far as short term memory and
> >> overall recall, not to mention a significant loss in pulmonary
> >> ability. There are days of highlighted cerebral activity and others
> >> where I'm not sure who I am after 2 cups of coffee. It's a strange
> >> existence but it still works for me and I'm able to spend time yaking
> >> away in here, so that 's good. I've been dreaming very heavily this
> >> week and trying to peace together meanings if any. There is a lot
> >> going on out there in the beyond.
>
> >> On Feb 16, 4:41 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> > ;) You're not getting my DMT levels too high...and you left out
> >> Ketamine!
> >> > What I'm merely stating is that it's not too difficult to understand
> >> what an
> >> > OBE is, nor to have one anytime you feel like. Accomplishing that state
> >> by
> >> > producing your own DMT is quite a feat, but given what I've seen well
> >> > trained athletes and martial artists accomplish in altering their
> >> metabolism
> >> > on command, I don't have problem believing it's possible.
>
> >> > " I believe there to be a
> >> > spontaneity aspect of OBE that occurs during spiritual and dream
> >> > states without any influence from DMT."
>
> >> > While you're dreaming? Well blood hell, of course. I can also fly while
> >> I'm
> >> > dreaming, certainly don't need DMT for that. As for "spiritual states",
> >> I'm
> >> > not quite sure what you mean by that. If you're talking about being
> >> awake
> >> > and in some sort of trance, I'd refer you back to those chemical
> >> > cocktails...there's loads of research that's quite easy to find on what
> >> > exactly is going on in the brain in those kinds of "spiritual
> >> states"...and
> >> > ruling out DMT, or one of a small handful of other neurochemicals, would
> >> be
> >> > a misunderstanding of the processes at play in the brain.
>
> >> > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> > > Easy now Bubba, don't get your DMT level up too high!! I didn't say
> >> > > it was difficult to understand, it's just that you are making a direct
> >> > > link seemingly (from my fundamentally vacant mental state) discounting
> >> > > any other cause for OBE, possibly the insinuation was also on my part,
> >> > > but I did think that your insinuation was that OBE was only attainable
> >> > > through DMT. Technically OBE's are associated with NDE's but they
> >> > > are not exclusively confined to that mode. I believe there to be a
> >> > > spontaneity aspect of OBE that occurs during spiritual and dream
> >> > > states without any influence from DMT.
> >> > > I do understand that you are being supportive of my post when you are
> >> > > saying that DMT had most likely a great influence on my personal
> >> > > experience and I agree with that assessment, however, there are other
> >> > > means of inducing OBE, such as Meditative techniques, Mental and
> >> > > Mechanical induction, the Mind Awake Body Asleep state (used by Thomas
> >> > > Edison), Etc............what I'm saying is that triggers other than
> >> > > DMT, Dextromethorphan, PCP, and the newest Salvia Divinorum exist.
>
> >> > > On Feb 16, 2:19 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> > > > I'm not insinuating, I'm stating for the record.
> >> > > > 1. DMT produces an effect that is similar in nature for all users,
> >> > > differing
> >> > > > only in the perception of the user. It typically begins with the
> >> user
> >> > > > feeling that they are floating out of their body, up towards the
> >> ceiling,
> >> > > > having the impression they are seeing their body and the room, then
> >> being
> >> > > > drawn towards a tunnel of some sort, passing through the tunnel,
> >> into a
> >> > > > different place which can either be described as "heaven", "hell",
> >> or
> >> > > some
> >> > > > other type of mythical environment, where they often encounter
> >> "angel",
> >> > > > "demons", "fairies", "aliens", or there supernatural entities, and
> >> at the
> >> > > > end of said experience, they are drawn back into their bodies.
>
> >> > > > 2. DMT is naturally produced in the human body, and its production
> >> spikes
> >> > > > during times of extreme duress, most notably near and at death.
>
> >> > > > What's difficult to understand about this?
>
> >> > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > I guess you are insinuating that out of body, astral and other are
> >> > > > > only affects attainable through DMT. There have been documented
> >> > > > > stories of people clinically pronounced dead then regaining
> >> > > > > consciousness that remember seeing themselves laying in the
> >> hospital
> >> > > > > bed. These days with advances in cardiac resuscitation the
> >> incidences
> >> > > > > of death and near death experiences are increasing along with
> >> stories
> >> > > > > of the beyond. I myself experienced lung collapse due to
> >> pneumonia,
> >> > > > > of which I was unaware of but perceived to be another back ache
> >> and
> >> > > > > which I further exacerbated by treating it with muscle relaxants,
> >> > > > > thereby allowing the pneumonia to progress to the point of the
> >> > > > > collapse.
>
> >> > > > > On Feb 16, 9:20 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >> > > > > > Slip Disc, there's no reason to dismiss it, when it's been well
> >> > > > > documented,
> >> > > > > > and fully explained.
> >> > > > > > Google "effects of DiMethylTryptamine".
>
> >> > > > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Slip Disc <[email protected]>
> >> > > wrote:
>
> >> > > > > > > We can't dismiss the possibility of out of body experience and
> >> the
> >> > > > > > > occurrence of other phenomena in the death experience, based
> >> upon
> >> > > > > > > death in the sleep mode. Coming from you Pat, I'm a bit
> >> dismayed as
> >> > > > > > > you should have the wherewithal to explain it better than I.
> >> > > However,
> >> > > > > > > I can relay a portion of my experience within a coma at which
> >> time
> >> > > I
> >> > > > > > > did know I was dying, so even in the subconscious mind there
> >> is
> >> > > > > > > "awareness" of death. Would you rather be awake watching
> >> yourself
> >> > > die
> >> > > > > > > or be a floating apparition watching yourself sleep? Aside
> >> from
> >> > > that
> >> > > > > > > we can't be sure that a
>
> ...
>
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>
> - Show quoted text -
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