There is much in your posts that agrees with my experience, Chris. Except that ... even all of that isn't the whole truth !
On Feb 17, 8:42 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > One other note on this: > The idea of heaven or hell I think was best explored in the movie 'Waking > Life': > > http://www.foxstore.com/detail.php?item=438 > > The movie posits that heaven or hell is the experience as you die, your > final second stretching into eternity as your perception of time ceases to > be. Thus, as your DMT production spikes, and your prefrontal processes are > disconnected from sensory inputs which are shutting down, your logical > processes are left with only your subconscious in the final moments before > death. All joys, regrets, guilts, achievements, pride, love, are all indexed > in that final moment, and the angels or demons that await you in your DMT > tunnel are entirely of your own creation. > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Chris Jenkins > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > I think those "mini-fugues" you achieve on limited sleep and coffee are > > most definitely small scale versions of the "spiritual states" you are > > referring to. > > Much of the modern resurgence in non-Christian western spirituality is > > influenced is influenced by various cultures who much to say about the > > topic. Most of these cultures were shamanic in nature, and made use of > > psychoactive substances in order to achieve "spiritual transcendence". The > > use of these substances as sacrament has been a cultural tradition for as > > long as humankind has existed. The only religions which don't are those > > which prescribe various forms of asceticism, sadism, or masochism, all which > > in suitable form can release the the cocktail in question. > > > The "Spiritual Experience" is the most intense, amazing, transcendent > > hallucinogenic experience a human can have. That process has been > > philosophized and analyzed at length by great minds such as Hoffman, Leary, > > Castaneta, and others. The non-random nature of classes of hallucinogens > > allows those states to be of use in guided meditation. They serve purpose in > > ritual. By disconnecting logical thought processes from the normal channels > > of perception, the shaman is forced to face their subconscious. This is a > > journey repeated through out all shamanic traditions. > > > In much of the Western New Age movement, elements of shamanic tradition, > > especially Far Eastern and Native American traditions, have been > > incorporated into the philosophies, but the psychoactive elements have all > > been removed. Three days of fasting on nothing but pemmican and water, while > > walking through the desert, followed by a night of peyote tea, is sure to > > guarantee a night spent in journey with the Great Spirit. > > > That was probably un-necessary history I'm sure, but I wanted to drive home > > the fact that it's really only the very modern groups that tell you you can > > just pop right out if you try hard enough. Almost everyone else prescribes a > > tea, a mushroom, flogging yourself with a whip til you bleed, flogging > > someone else with a whip til they bleed, or spending a year on a mountain > > top drinking water and eating a half cup of rice a day. > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> Yes I can imagine that accomplishing that state of OBE on one's own > >> initiative is quite the feat but I'm sure that it's been realized by > >> some. I've heard of triathlon participants at or near serious > >> dehydration levels experiencing a similar state. I know for me the > >> experience was life changing and still there are days that spend > >> considerable time reflecting upon it. I can't say that the outcome of > >> returning has been all that positive as far as short term memory and > >> overall recall, not to mention a significant loss in pulmonary > >> ability. There are days of highlighted cerebral activity and others > >> where I'm not sure who I am after 2 cups of coffee. It's a strange > >> existence but it still works for me and I'm able to spend time yaking > >> away in here, so that 's good. I've been dreaming very heavily this > >> week and trying to peace together meanings if any. There is a lot > >> going on out there in the beyond. > > >> On Feb 16, 4:41 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > ;) You're not getting my DMT levels too high...and you left out > >> Ketamine! > >> > What I'm merely stating is that it's not too difficult to understand > >> what an > >> > OBE is, nor to have one anytime you feel like. Accomplishing that state > >> by > >> > producing your own DMT is quite a feat, but given what I've seen well > >> > trained athletes and martial artists accomplish in altering their > >> metabolism > >> > on command, I don't have problem believing it's possible. > > >> > " I believe there to be a > >> > spontaneity aspect of OBE that occurs during spiritual and dream > >> > states without any influence from DMT." > > >> > While you're dreaming? Well blood hell, of course. I can also fly while > >> I'm > >> > dreaming, certainly don't need DMT for that. As for "spiritual states", > >> I'm > >> > not quite sure what you mean by that. If you're talking about being > >> awake > >> > and in some sort of trance, I'd refer you back to those chemical > >> > cocktails...there's loads of research that's quite easy to find on what > >> > exactly is going on in the brain in those kinds of "spiritual > >> states"...and > >> > ruling out DMT, or one of a small handful of other neurochemicals, would > >> be > >> > a misunderstanding of the processes at play in the brain. > > >> > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > Easy now Bubba, don't get your DMT level up too high!! I didn't say > >> > > it was difficult to understand, it's just that you are making a direct > >> > > link seemingly (from my fundamentally vacant mental state) discounting > >> > > any other cause for OBE, possibly the insinuation was also on my part, > >> > > but I did think that your insinuation was that OBE was only attainable > >> > > through DMT. Technically OBE's are associated with NDE's but they > >> > > are not exclusively confined to that mode. I believe there to be a > >> > > spontaneity aspect of OBE that occurs during spiritual and dream > >> > > states without any influence from DMT. > >> > > I do understand that you are being supportive of my post when you are > >> > > saying that DMT had most likely a great influence on my personal > >> > > experience and I agree with that assessment, however, there are other > >> > > means of inducing OBE, such as Meditative techniques, Mental and > >> > > Mechanical induction, the Mind Awake Body Asleep state (used by Thomas > >> > > Edison), Etc............what I'm saying is that triggers other than > >> > > DMT, Dextromethorphan, PCP, and the newest Salvia Divinorum exist. > > >> > > On Feb 16, 2:19 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > > I'm not insinuating, I'm stating for the record. > >> > > > 1. DMT produces an effect that is similar in nature for all users, > >> > > differing > >> > > > only in the perception of the user. It typically begins with the > >> user > >> > > > feeling that they are floating out of their body, up towards the > >> ceiling, > >> > > > having the impression they are seeing their body and the room, then > >> being > >> > > > drawn towards a tunnel of some sort, passing through the tunnel, > >> into a > >> > > > different place which can either be described as "heaven", "hell", > >> or > >> > > some > >> > > > other type of mythical environment, where they often encounter > >> "angel", > >> > > > "demons", "fairies", "aliens", or there supernatural entities, and > >> at the > >> > > > end of said experience, they are drawn back into their bodies. > > >> > > > 2. DMT is naturally produced in the human body, and its production > >> spikes > >> > > > during times of extreme duress, most notably near and at death. > > >> > > > What's difficult to understand about this? > > >> > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > > >> > > > > I guess you are insinuating that out of body, astral and other are > >> > > > > only affects attainable through DMT. There have been documented > >> > > > > stories of people clinically pronounced dead then regaining > >> > > > > consciousness that remember seeing themselves laying in the > >> hospital > >> > > > > bed. These days with advances in cardiac resuscitation the > >> incidences > >> > > > > of death and near death experiences are increasing along with > >> stories > >> > > > > of the beyond. I myself experienced lung collapse due to > >> pneumonia, > >> > > > > of which I was unaware of but perceived to be another back ache > >> and > >> > > > > which I further exacerbated by treating it with muscle relaxants, > >> > > > > thereby allowing the pneumonia to progress to the point of the > >> > > > > collapse. > > >> > > > > On Feb 16, 9:20 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > > > > > Slip Disc, there's no reason to dismiss it, when it's been well > >> > > > > documented, > >> > > > > > and fully explained. > >> > > > > > Google "effects of DiMethylTryptamine". > > >> > > > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> > >> > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > We can't dismiss the possibility of out of body experience and > >> the > >> > > > > > > occurrence of other phenomena in the death experience, based > >> upon > >> > > > > > > death in the sleep mode. Coming from you Pat, I'm a bit > >> dismayed as > >> > > > > > > you should have the wherewithal to explain it better than I. > >> > > However, > >> > > > > > > I can relay a portion of my experience within a coma at which > >> time > >> > > I > >> > > > > > > did know I was dying, so even in the subconscious mind there > >> is > >> > > > > > > "awareness" of death. Would you rather be awake watching > >> yourself > >> > > die > >> > > > > > > or be a floating apparition watching yourself sleep? Aside > >> from > >> > > that > >> > > > > > > we can't be sure that a > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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