this I agree to, for many folks in many circumstances...
On Jun 30, 10:41 am, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sorry, Molly, I misrepresented the point I was trying to make by
> writing "THE large amount of ..." instead of "A large amount of ..."
> immediately preceding the passage you quoted. I really should proof-
> read my posts more carefully. :-(
>
> Of course I don't want to suggest that the choice a couple makes
> concerning a division of roles (homemaker/breadwinner) necessarily
> means old-style gender stereotyping and take your point that that
> there is much more to role-modelling than this basic division of tasks
> which takes place for all sorts of reasons. Nevertheless, I retain my
> position that even in western societies (and these are the context in
> which I was writing) emancipation, although formally/legally
> substantially achieved, still has a long way to go.
>
> Francis
>
> On 30 Jun., 16:13, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "women who chose to
> > remain at home and be full-time Mommies are responsible for the
> > perseverance of chauvenistic gender models among many young people,
> > particularly young men."
>
> > aren't you assuming alot about the environment that may or may not be
> > true and would have to go along with a mother staying at home to care
> > for the children instead of shipping them off to day care? Could a
> > mother be a homemaker while the husband and wife share
> > responsibilities and participate equally in the messages communicated
> > to their children about life and living? Are there other ways to show
> > children that women are creative, strong contributors to the community
> > that don't include a profession outside the home? Can a father
> > encourage the empowerment and independence of all family members and
> > still be the breadwinner? Can he be loving and nurturing and be the
> > breadwinner? Enquiring minds want to know.
>
> > It takes a Chauvinist to model chauvinism to young men. This involves
> > an attitude that women are inferior. This is not, as you imply,
> > present in every household where the mother is a homemaker, choosing
> > to be the primary caregiver for her children.
>
> > On Jun 30, 3:02 am, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > I echo Slip on this one, rigsy.
>
> > > As someone who grew up in the sixties and seventies, I am frequently
> > > amazed at the extent to which old role models, which many of us 30
> > > years ago assumed were on the way out, have persevered.
>
> > > Personally, I suspect that the large amount of women who chose to
> > > remain at home and be full-time Mommies are responsible for the
> > > perseverance of chauvenistic gender models among many young people,
> > > particularly young men. These are the role models, the hands rocking
> > > the cradle, who have taught their children that men are incapable of
> > > cooking, cleaning and nurturing and that women must be dependent on
> > > men for their material security.
>
> > > Even growing up in conservative Catholic Ireland, my experience and
> > > rearing was different. My mother always worked (she was a music
> > > teacher) and there were no distinctions made between boys and girls
> > > when it came to household chores in our family. My father retired
> > > seven years before my mother and took over the household completely
> > > during this period. Today, at 75, my mother is the one who is in
> > > contact with the world via internet, with an an active Facebook
> > > presence, uploading photos from her mobile phone and sending them to
> > > her grandchidren, enthusing about the updates in the composition
> > > software which allows her to produce printed sheet music for the 4-
> > > part chorales with orchestration, which she composes on the electric
> > > piano patched into her PC. My father won't touch the thing!
>
> > > We all have our own stories, mostly resulting from the choices we made
> > > - even if the consequences of those choices weren't always clear to us
> > > at the time. We should be careful about generalising from our
> > > particular personal experiences.
>
> > > Francis
>
> > > On 30 Jun., 05:16, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > I personally don't see it as an unfortunate role. I see that some
> > > > women see it as an unfortunate role.
>
> > > > I've always had the feeling that you, rigsy, were never all that
> > > > thrilled with the marital/motherhood roles. Comments you have made in
> > > > the past like...........
>
> > > > "The world belongs to men. Children are sandbags to a woman's dream."
>
> > > > It is your statement that labels it the unfortunate role. I would
> > > > say it is an unfortunate role for those who are unhappy with it. The
> > > > sandbags as you call them got in the way of your dreams.
>
> > > > You also stated;
> > > > "I don't think men and women are equal. Men can move along. Women must
> > > > be the good mother and nurture their children. Provide an example-
> > > > blah-blah blah. It's
> > > > biology or the lessons from lions. "
>
> > > > This again does not sound like you are overly joyed with it. I just
> > > > get the impression that you are somewhat disgruntled with the whole
> > > > picture and my post is a reflection of that.
>
> > > > I should revise my post as to indicate it's specific nature and not a
> > > > gender generalization.
> > > > My apology smology!
>
> > > > On Jun 29, 9:39 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > Also religious channels. What noose? Some women do not get, want,
> > > > > accept alimony and child support. Yes- we do have choices sometimes as
> > > > > simple as saying "no" othertimes accepting the consequences of saying
> > > > > "yes". And some beautiful women do not choose to use that beauty as a
> > > > > weapon or allurement- like a marketing tool. It is no small
> > > > > accomplishment to raise children to maturity and healthy adjustment as
> > > > > their caretaker- if that's what you see as motherhood- it's about 24
> > > > > years per child by the time they can really fly on their own. I
> > > > > enjoyed my motherhood years. Why do you see it as an "unfortunate
> > > > > role"?
>
> > > > > On Jun 29, 3:29 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > No dear woman, women use their sexuality because women are sexual
> > > > > > creatures capable of alluring the most formidable opponent. When
> > > > > > women realize the power of their sexuality they are not nearly women
> > > > > > but yet girls. It is a women's unfortunate role that leads to
> > > > > > entrapment within a circle of the offspring caretaker, and you are
> > > > > > right, we men can just move on, like lions we are free, like bears
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > give the seed that gives the birth with which you are eternally
> > > > > > connected to. Don't blame us for our lot in life for we, no more
> > > > > > than
> > > > > > you, have choice. It is only through legal political channels that
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > have put a noose on our necks. When you submit you should be well
> > > > > > informed of the ramifications and in that sense it takes one.
>
> > > > > > On Jun 29, 2:30 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > I have been in those situations, as well, which are sincere
> > > > > > > friendly
> > > > > > > gestures but I have also seen the corrupted routine both in
> > > > > > > business
> > > > > > > and social relations which are basically a form of control. Women
> > > > > > > use
> > > > > > > their sexuality because the culture has fostered its rewards. It
> > > > > > > takes
> > > > > > > two.
>
> > > > > > > On Jun 29, 4:50 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > When I moved into my community the welcoming committee came by
> > > > > > > > to drop
> > > > > > > > off a basket full of gifts as a way of saying hello. We took the
> > > > > > > > gifts and had a great time without feeling any need for
> > > > > > > > reciprocation. I had a neighbor give me two tickets to the
> > > > > > > > symphony
> > > > > > > > because he and his wife could not go on that date, they were
> > > > > > > > great
> > > > > > > > seats. He never came by to ask any favors and a year later they
> > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > away. I give away gifts all the time and think that giving
> > > > > > > > begins a
> > > > > > > > cycle of giving. Those that receive learn that giving can be as
> > > > > > > > rewarding as receiving. I can see that in the business world
> > > > > > > > buying
> > > > > > > > lavish gifts for the management might be construed as a request
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > special treatment and I have seen some fine women climb the
> > > > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > > ladder via their sexual prowess, if that can be considered a
> > > > > > > > gift.
>
> > > > > > > > On Jun 29, 1:08 am, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > I wonder why may I accept a ' gift ' from someone who I do
> > > > > > > > > not even
> > > > > > > > > know, to whom I myself have never offered one ( gift ) or (
> > > > > > > > > left to
> > > > > > > > > myself ) would never desire to !
>
> > > > > > > > > " Integrity does not have to be lost upon the receipt of a
> > > > > > > > > gift."
>
> > > > > > > > > Read the first para. Why else would one accept a gift ?
> > > > > > > > > Unless it is
> > > > > > > > > token, read ' costing next to nothing,' say, flowers.
>
> > > > > > > > > On Jun 29, 9:21 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > Gifts are good, I like gifts, what's wrong with gifts?
> > > > > > > > > > Integrity does
> > > > > > > > > > not have to be lost upon the receipt of a gift. A gift
> > > > > > > > > > should not be
> > > > > > > > > > preconceived as a bribe. The corrupted have made it so
> > > > > > > > > > because they
> > > > > > > > > > took gifts in exchange for favor but this does not set a
> > > > > > > > > > standard. We
> > > > > > > > > > continually diminish our quality of life on the basis of
> > > > > > > > > > those that
> > > > > > > > > > are unethical, why let them ruin it for the rest of us?
> > > > > > > > > > Give and
> > > > > > > > > > Receive without strings!
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Jun 28, 10:56 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > accepting business gifts should be
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > totally unacceptable behavior, both by the giver and
> > > > > > > > > > > > the receiver. -iam
>
> > > > > > > > > > > I agree only in the public sector. I work for the State
> > > > > > > > > > > so pretty
>
> ...
>
> read more »
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