I think you are both right and wrong on this Molly. You have a biting wit on occasion (I can't remember an unwelcome one). The political opposition in the UK is now almost entirely satire and increasingly crude. This and cynicism can be very virtuous, but moral high ground is quickly infested. I now cry rather than laugh at our political satire - it's almost as if we are powerless other than through the weak force of ridicule. Agreements are fine if they are fair; humbleness is great if it comes from all sides. I'd say, as any true cynic tends to believe, that we face a very corrupt social reality. The danger is that such a view can make us so holier-than-thou that we can justify killing everyone else as 'impure' (the ultimate Wahhabi or Crusader position). I believe bureaucracy and 'politeness' is now coming from such a position. Deconstruction has never been necessary in showing us that 'rational positions' are much less rational than the speakers lead us to assume. "Humour" is often the only way to express that the Emperor is naked, something that should worry us a great deal. Many of us would enter 'mediation' if it wasn't already skewed to papering over cracks and already part of the defences of the powerful. The long run has a pretty bad history as the songs of victors (generally those who prepared the ground for their triumphs at home while others did the dirty work). My guess is that the problem is we can't learn the lessons of humour and ridicule because "we" are already cynically (in the bad sense) disposed against it and fair play in dialogue.
On 29 Aug, 13:44, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > sarcasm, like cynicism, protects, divides and isolates. I don't think > you need that tag, Don. Your meaning is clear. There are those of us > that suggest that, in the long run, establishing agreement first makes > for a happier relationship. Then again, you might not wish to > consider the long run. Or the effect of sarcasm. This I do not know. > > On Aug 29, 5:36 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 7:57 > > AM,[email protected]<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Which is another way of saying do wrong by all means, and if caught > > > say sorry, isn't it? > > > > Why that instead of 'Ask permison and never feel the need to say > > > sorry'? > > > > On 28 Aug, 05:05, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> That's my motto but I'll share it. "Never ask for permission. Do > > >> what you want and ask for forgiveness later." Words to live by. > > > >> dj > > > I need to start using some kind of sarcasm tag. Maybe like this /// > > to indicate when I'm popping off with some sarc. I was kidding. Of > > course this isn't a motto to live by but it can be useful. If you > > know the answer will be "no" why ask for permission? Go ahead and > > paint the house a color you can stand while she's visiting her mother > > to avoid the sickening peach color she'll choose if you ask her. What > > you do doesn't need to be wrong, it just might not be what the > > permission giver would want. > > > dj > > > >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:36 AM, iam deheretic<[email protected]> > > >> wrote: > > >> > My Question > > > >> > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 4:09 AM, Darrel Farrel <[email protected]> > > >> > wrote: > > > >> >> an eye for an eye is fair > > > >> > Why do I need to be fair, I think forgiveness is fair and much easier. > > >> > Allan > > > >> >> > Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 02:27:25 -0700 > > >> >> > Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: revenge > > >> >> > From: [email protected] > > >> >> > To: [email protected] > > > >> >> > All in all I think revenge is a moral and psycological deadend. > > > >> >> > It may feel good for a while to take vengance, but other than that > > >> >> > little rush of feeling good what does it do in the long term? > > > >> >> > On 26 Aug, 05:12, facilitator <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > > I think of revenge for variuos reasons from time to time. > > >> >> > > Usually to > > >> >> > > correct something or someone when I have been wronged. > > > >> >> > > But I am not very clever in that regard and don't carry it out > > >> >> > > thinking that somehow this "correction to an injustice" will spin > > >> >> > > out > > >> >> > > of control and fall back on my head anyway. > > > >> >> > > I have chosen to spend my time doing something proactive and > > >> >> > > constructive instead. > > > >> >> > > One of my famous sayings helps me in this regard: > > >> >> > > "The opposite of love is not hate , it is indifference". > > > >> >> > > I become indifferent to the offender. I am almost certain this > > >> >> > > has to > > >> >> > > be wrong, but it works for me. > > > >> >> > > Still, all in all, I would prefer for the most part to be the > > >> >> > > hammer > > >> >> > > rather than the nail! > > > >> >> > > On Aug 25, 9:11 pm, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> >> > > > When I saw you use the word revenge in the other thread Neil, I > > >> >> > > > got > > >> >> > > > the full body rush. Ugh, revenge - bad. But then I read your > > >> >> > > > amusing > > >> >> > > > experience and I asked myself if I ever felt this way. The > > >> >> > > > answer > > >> >> > > > is > > >> >> > > > yes. > > > >> >> > > > At the end of my first marriage, my soon to be ex husband had an > > >> >> > > > affair, and his girlfriend would call the house, let it ring > > >> >> > > > twice > > >> >> > > > and > > >> >> > > > hang up, or hang up if I answered before two rings. This got my > > >> >> > > > attention when it began, so I started watching what became > > >> >> > > > obvious > > >> >> > > > between them. So I asked them both directly about it, and they > > >> >> > > > both > > >> >> > > > denied it. It went on for a bit longer before it occurred to me > > >> >> > > > that > > >> >> > > > I need not suffer the intrusion into my life. I called her home > > >> >> > > > (she > > >> >> > > > also was married with children) every hour for twenty four - > > >> >> > > > day and > > >> >> > > > night, for one twenty four hour period, and hung up after two > > >> >> > > > rings > > >> >> > > > or > > >> >> > > > if anyone answered. If my husband heard me doing this when he > > >> >> > > > was > > >> >> > > > home at night, he said nothing. Her husband was obviously not > > >> >> > > > happy > > >> >> > > > as the night wore on, as evidenced by the tone of his voice. > > >> >> > > > Lucky > > >> >> > > > for me, it was prior to caller ID telephones. Well, it worked > > >> >> > > > for > > >> >> > > > me. The calls stopped. Nothing was ever mentioned by anyone > > >> >> > > > until > > >> >> > > > one day a couple of years and after my divorce I got a call from > > >> >> > > > her. > > >> >> > > > She had gone into AA and wanted to make amends. I listened to > > >> >> > > > her, > > >> >> > > > encouraged her to continue with her program, and kindly let her > > >> >> > > > know > > >> >> > > > she was not welcome to call me again. > > > >> >> > > > This, by the definitions above, would be revenge, although for > > >> >> > > > me at > > >> >> > > > the time, it was the only way I could think of to get the calls > > >> >> > > > to > > >> >> > > > stop. I wasn't thinking of getting even, but stopping the > > >> >> > > > calls. I > > >> >> > > > wasn't delighted in this poor families frustration, but glad the > > >> >> > > > calls > > >> >> > > > stopped. > > > >> >> > > > On Aug 25, 7:33 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> >> > > > > It's not a good idea to let a chimp see you give it an > > >> >> > > > > injection - > > >> >> > > > > it > > >> >> > > > > will take revenge. My guess amongst humans is that there is > > >> >> > > > > so > > >> >> > > > > little > > >> >> > > > > justice that revenge gets taken in all kinds of inappropriate > > >> >> > > > > ways. > > >> >> > > > > The idiot wife beater may well be really pissed off over other > > >> >> > > > > matters > > >> >> > > > > and so on. Young Iranian boys off to get killed by Iraqi gas > > >> >> > > > > wore > > >> >> > > > > socks marked 'Death to Israel'. From the Baltic to the > > >> >> > > > > Balkans > > >> >> > > > > one > > >> >> > > > > set has taken revenge against another for over a thousand > > >> >> > > > > years. > > >> >> > > > > In > > >> >> > > > > Albania, the men have to stay indoors whilst the women toil > > >> >> > > > > in the > > >> >> > > > > fields for fear of vendetta (no doubt a cunning sexist use of > > >> >> > > > > 'revenge'). Petty revenge is nearly always taken out for the > > >> >> > > > > wrong > > >> >> > > > > reasons against the wrong people. It's usually nasty and > > >> >> > > > > childish. > > > >> >> > > > > On 25 Aug, 23:30, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> >> > > > > > I think you covered it all. > > > >> >> > > > > > On Aug 25, 5:00 pm, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> > > >> >> > > > > > wrote: > > > >> >> > > > > > > Revenge or vengeance consists of retaliation against a > > >> >> > > > > > > person > > >> >> > > > > > > or group > > >> >> > > > > > > in response to perceived wrongdoing. Although many > > >> >> > > > > > > aspects of > > >> >> > > > > > > revenge > > >> >> > > > > > > resemble or echo the concept of making things equal, > > >> >> > > > > > > revenge > > >> >> > > > > > > usually > > >> >> > > > > > > has a more injurious than constructive goal. The vengeful > > >> >> > > > > > > wish > > >> >> > > > > > > is to > > >> >> > > > > > > make the perceived wrongdoer go through what they put the > > >> >> > > > > > > victim > > >> >> > > > > > > through or to make sure the wrongdoer can never do what > > >> >> > > > > > > they > > >> >> > > > > > > did > > >> >> > > > > > > again. > > > >> >> > > > > > > Revenge has been a popular theme for art and culture > > >> >> > > > > > > throughout > > >> >> > > > > > > history. Many popular motion pictures have used it as a > > >> >> > > > > > > central theme, > > >> >> > > > > > > including Payback, Death Wish, Star Trek II: The Wrath of > > >> >> > > > > > > Khan, Star > > >> >> > > > > > > Wars: Revenge of the Sith, and Kill Bill. Classic literary > > >> >> > > > > > > examples of > > >> >> > > > > > > revenge stories include The Oresteia, Hamlet, The > > >> >> > > > > > > Merchant of > > >> >> > > > > > > Venice, > > >> >> > > > > > > Don Giovanni, and Moby-Dick. > > > >> >> > > > > > > Revenge seen in the light of ethics highlights the tension > > >> >> > > > > > > between > > >> >> > > > > > > what we think of a just versus what we think of as right. > > >> >> > > > > > > But > > >> >> > > > > > > even in > > >> >> > > > > > > the light of ethics, some may accept revenge as the > > >> >> > > > > > > ethical > > >> >> > > > > > > alternative when an impartial system of justice is > > >> >> > > > > > > missing or > > >> >> > > > > > > ineffective, reasoning that punishment of wrongdoers is a > > >> >> > > > > > > better > > >> >> > > > > > > alternative than no punishment whatsoever. In these > > >> >> > > > > > > cases, it > > >> >> > > > > > > seems > > >> >> > > > > > > reasonable that revenge may be an appropriate reaction to > > >> >> > > > > > > small > > >> >> > > > > > > infractions, assuming the revenge is kept small as well. > > > >> >> > > > > > > What do YOU think?- Hide quoted text - > > > >> >> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > >> >> > > - Show quoted text - > > > >> > -- > > >> > ( > > >> > ) > > >> > I_D Allan- Hide quoted text - > > > >> - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
