When is a fact not simply a fact? I have a beautiful blue object on a table next to a chair where my patients sit in my office. Technically - factually - it is an ashtray. Ocassionally a patient will ask is it ok for them to smoke. I will say If they have to please do it before or after the session outside. I explain that they certaintly might smoke or not - that is their choice. But if they do in my presence I will be coughing the rest of the session as I am allergic to the smoke? Then am I teasing them? No I love the way the object looks combined with the irredescent blue color.
My point is - that it is factually true that I have an ashtray in my room. However to me it is an object of beauty. Additionally the same object can function as an ashtray to a smoker, an object of art to an artist, a potential weapon for a thief. A fact is not simply a fact in and of itself .ll facts are embedded in multiple contexts. Chane the context and or the meaning of the embedded fact in a particualr context and the so called pure fact changes radically. -----Original Message----- From: Slip Disc <[email protected]> To: "Minds Eye" <[email protected]> Sent: Thu, Sep 17, 2009 9:24 pm Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: Objectivism vs Altruism o I don't get the point you don't have. he point is: IF data can have multiple interpretations, perceptions, eading to multiple conclusions the data cannot be deemed "fact". acts are immutable and have no malle able quality. here are many facts that no one can dispute and I'm sure you can name few. If you dare you might want to dispute some facts concerning ur solar system or the fact that if you chop your hand off a new one ont grow back or that castration renders the male unable to eproduce. Lee might waste time arguing some cryogenic sperm storage rocess but the point is clear; "Fact" at it's core is exactly that, Fact". Some Dictionary blurb: act noun . something that actually exists; reality; truth. . something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now fact. . a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known o be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth. I find it all so simple and wonder why the conundrum. Facts are not nigmatic but simply truths. The "Only" facts I've ever known to be false (pure bull) are the facts hat come from witnesses during a trial or a myriad of other abrications stemming from marital disputes. f course those are just lies and not fact at all. n Sep 17, 5:08 pm, [email protected] wrote: Perhaps you are technically correct. But you get my point No? So help me out lease. -----Original Message----- From: Slip Disc <[email protected]> To: "Minds Eye" <[email protected]> Sent: Thu, Sep 17, 2009 9:09 am Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: Objectivism vs Altruism herefore, 1+1=2 is not a "fact" to begin with except as viewed by hose who accept, understand and acknowledge it's numerical bas e. It s only subject to interpretation by those living by an alternately efined numerical system or those who would debate whether athematical systems are simply human constructs. 1011 might be iewed as one thousand eleven unless your a computer analyst, so the xample presented in regards to the 'fact topic' appears to be nvalid. On Sep 17, 7:47 am, [email protected] wrote: A fact is a fact but like all data this factual data has to be interpreted. hen interpretation is added into the mix - the same or dofferent people may well view the same fact fropm multiple erspectives. Case in point: most people would probably agree that one plus one is two. However 1 + 1 ight alidly be viewed as 11. Then again one plus one might be viewed as three as in the Law of Threes - or ealian Logic or the mystery of the trinity. Thus the initIAL FACT is transformed into a variety of alterrnative eanings depending on the scale of observation of the observer in question. -----Original Message----- From: Don Johnson <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent:20Wed, Sep 16, 2009 3:06 pm Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: Objectivism vs Altruism understand that some people refuse to accept certain facts. I also nderstand that some people accept as fact what is, in fact, no such hing. I don't see how this makes facts subjective. Facts are facts. ither som ething is true or it isn't. Whether or not somebody elieves it has nothing to do with it. I'm on Slips side of this oin. dj n Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: So please, sir, give me a few of these objective facts that Rand wants us to bear in mind, and we'll see just how objective they really are. <<Lee Sep 16, 9:57 am .........facts can be subjective as well as objective<<Lee Sep 16, 10:17 am On Sep 16, 10:21A 0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote: > Umm settles what? > Ohh and you're welcome! > On 16 Sep, 16:17, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > I claim only that facts can be subjective as well as objective, that > > indeed both kinds exist. <Lee > > OK! Well I guess that settles it. Thanks mate! > > On Sep 16, 9:57 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > Bwahahahah ohh Slip, you slay me mate honestly. > > > Listen very carefully sir, I'll say it again. > > > I claim only that facts can be subjective as well as objective, that > > > indeed both=2 0kinds exist. > > > The point? Or why do I make this disctinction? > > > The point is Rand wants us to deal in objectivity, well when we are > > > clear what is objective and what is subjective then perhaps we can > > > move forward. > > > So please, sir, give me a few of these objective facts that Rand wants > > > us to bear in mind, and we'll see just how objective they really are. > > > On 16 Sep, 15:46, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Obviously, according to your expressions, if fact is disputable, > > > > mutable through human interpretation and perception then there are no > > > > facts. > > > > So shall we begin to dispel some well known facts as myths? > > > > If I stick my hand in "boiling water" it is not a "fact" that my hand > > > > will get scalded but just a=2 0figment of my imagination, the imagination > > > > that I perceive to "exist". > > > > The sun that I see in the sky may not really be there but only exists > > > > as a result of human perceptions of...... "what a sun is as well as > > > > how it appears to arise, cross the heavens and then hide beneath the > > > > earth, or, the concept of the earth rotating allowing the above > > > > appearances to occur..." > > > > If we attribute everything to "human thought" then the whole of the > > > > conversation is moot, the interview with Ayn Rand was just20a dream. > > > > It is not a fact that anything exists, in "nano thought". > > >=2 0> Note: The above post may not exist for some. > > > > BUT WAIT!! THERE'S MORE!! > > > > From the Eternity thread an excerpt from the much revered > > > > Justintruth.......................quotes added to "Fact" for your > > > > convenience. > > > > Justintruth > > > > View profile > > > > Here is what I have been able to get from reading: Consider the fact" > > > > that 1+1=2. Given the normal meaning of "1" and "+ "add "2" this fact > > > > is true. But this "fact" never happened. It is an eternal truth. > > > > Eternality is the place of meaning - where meaning is. The previous > > > > sentence being more correct when one understands that "place" and > > > > "where" are not to be interpreted spatially. Eternality is the "fact" > > > > of the being=2 0of meaning or a reference to meaning being. Consider the > > > > "fact" that George Washington crossed the Delaware at Valley Forge. > > > > Now unlike the math that did happen in time but the "fact" that it > > > > happened is no longer temporal. The past is no longer happening. The > > > > past is now eternal and nothing can therefore change > > > > it. ..................... > > > > From Pat....Consciousness thread... > > > > As I said, the "fact" that we exist in a continuum implies that the > > > > sys tem is teleological. Thus the need for our 'whys' to be answered. > > > > I fear, though, that most of the answers will elude us while we're > > > > incarnate. > > > > Yes, you too Orn........ > > > > Yes too to the "fact" that one must adapt > > > > to an environment…knowing who they are with. > > > > But Wait! We also have unfortunate facts........ > > > > Fran.........The ends justify the means thread......... > > > > The > > > > unfortunate "fact" is that, despite the question of legitimacy > > > > regarding > > > > Bush's first term > > > > Care to rephrase anyone? OK so are we just tossing about the word > > > > "fact", should we remove it from our language being that it may not > > > > even exist? > > > > Fact is, oops did I say fact?, if we cannot conclude that fact exists > > > > then we are in a quandary, it's tautological. > > > > Fact is fac t is not fact is fact.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ ou received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Minds Eye"" group. o post to this group, send email to [email protected] o unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] or more options, visit this g roup athttp://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en ~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -~--~---------~--~----~------------~----- --~--~----~ ou received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Minds Eye"" group. o post to this group, send email to [email protected] o unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] or more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en ~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ ou received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Minds Eye"" group. o post to this group, send email to [email protected] o unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] or more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en ~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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