Thank you for the question.
On Nov 11, 8:25 pm, Doris Ragland <[email protected]> wrote:
> Does not Buddhaist practice drawing maldula's --drawing a circle and with-in
> that circle-and everything on has a meaning on ones life---and There is a
> book I can't remenber the name of it which you throw a coin and it is kind
> of like telling you of your good fortune or not...It is very important---If
> you do not know what I am talking about than I would not know what kind of
> belief that you practice--this is very old Buddha
> --On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 6:51 PM, ornamentalmind
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Doris, IF your question is directed to me, I have no idea what
> > 'medalua's' means. It doesn't even exist on god google! :-0
>
> > Sorry....
>
> > On Nov 11, 6:44 pm, Doris Ragland <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > I want to ask you a question? Do you throw coins and draw medalua's--
>
> > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 6:28 PM, ornamentalmind <
> > [email protected]>wrote:
>
> > > > …
> > > > What is the nature of that mind that knows this? - orn
> > > > “Empty” – e
> > > > Would you like to share anything about your experience(s) and/or
> > > > direct apprehension of emptiness? Is this possible?
> > > > What is at the base (underneath) all words and concepts? - orn
> > > > “.Nothing (see * below). There is no base where consciousness lands.
> > > > Consciousness releases. Buddha used the metaphor of fire unbound. When
> > > > the fuel (of grasping) is exhausted, where does the fire go when it
> > > > goes out? The question is nonsensical. In this unbound analogy, we
> > > > cannot speak of luminosity et al.” – e
>
> > > > Here I am not talking about either a place ‘where consciousness lands’
> > > > nor the process of consciousness. I am looking at that which doesn’t
> > > > move. And, while consciousness can be seen as a container, (see below
> > > > ***) here too this is not exactly what I am pointing toward. So, as
> > > > far as I understand it, the notion of grasping isn’t involved.
>
> > > > If something is “conceived” as being permanent, is that conception
> > > > itself permanent? - orn
>
> > > > "Of course not, wait around long enough and it will disappear." - e
>
> > > > (I asked the question about ‘conceived’ due to your post of: “…
> > > > EVERYTHING is seen as impermanent and let go of. Not to then land on
> > > > some other thing that is conceived as permanent but just let go at
> > > > grasping for permanence.” e, in case you were interested. )
>
> > > > Overall, I agree with your analysis of non-permanence in this context.
>
> > > > “What in your experience is permanent Orn? “ – e
>
> > > > Specific states…again, words belie the experience. I’ve pointed at
> > > > Gautama’s indictive to “Look for that which does not move.”, this
> > > > would be one example.
>
> > > > “…I agree it is not thinking. However, I don’t know about this
> > > > eternalism. Buddha was emphatic about the 2 extremes of eternalism and
> > > > annihilationism to be avoided for the middle way to be found. He did
> > > > not say they needed to be avoided to then find some other kind of uber
> > > > eternalism.” – e
>
> > > > As I understand that tenet system, Gautama was talking about the
> > > > GRASPING of those extremes. No? - orn
>
> > > > “http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html
> > > > Nagarjuna mentions this sutra in MMK XV. Is the permanent basis of the
> > > > mind (the minds true nature) an eternal essence? If it is, are we
> > > > still talking about Buddhism?” - e
>
> > > > e, as much as I appreciate this sort of comparison and analysis of
> > > > cannons, since the majority of Nagarjuna is lost and the words of
> > > > Gautama were not penned that we know of until hundreds of years after
> > > > his death, I equate this sort of study with similar Christian studies
> > > > and only observe and/or play it on occasion. In general, I don’t hold
> > > > much importance when it comes to texts. There are exceptions however
> > > > this is not one of them. And, as I’ve said, I’m not as keen on the
> > > > middle way as I am on mind only. The latter appears to be more
> > > > accurate to me. In any case, we both know how unmonolithic Buddhism
> > > > is. As said, while I appreciate scholarship and do study some, I do
> > > > not embrace revelation by using any ‘holy-text’. I more adhere to what
> > > > I find in practice. This is a long winded “I don’t know.” To your last
> > > > two questions above and have no interest in concocting an ontology
> > > > around it.
>
> > > > I read the entire link and remain perplexed as to your intention in
> > > > posting it.
>
> > > > When you said “ *Right but the way I see it, they just disappear, they
> > > > don’t disappear into some large container called mind.” - e
>
> > > > Yes, that is one type of experience. I find they return on occasion
> > > > too. *** I’m more talking about Alaya Consciousness. The notion of a
> > > > container is quite compatible with some Buddhist Schools.
>
> > > > Again, thanks for the opportunity to learn e.!!!
>
> > > > On Nov 11, 3:11 pm, e <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > Is true nature a state of an impermanent mind? In what way is it not
> > > > > (if any)? If the true nature is empty and impermanent, how can there
> > > > > be eternalism? It seems Buddha proffered a radical impermanence so
> > > > > that EVERYTHING is seen as impermanent and let go of. Not to then
> > > > > land
> > > > > on some other thing that is conceived as permanent but just let go at
> > > > > grasping for permanence.” – e
>
> > > > > All excellent questions and areas to explore e. And, I’m not sure I
> > > > > can answer them well. I will say that you appear to be taking a
> > > > > dialectical stance here…more accurately, using formal logic when it
> > > > > comes to permanent/impermanent. - orn
>
> > > > > I am only trying to talk about Buddhism as clearly and simply as
> > > > > possible.
>
> > > > > Continuing a commentary on your query, I will use some Socratic
> > > > > questions. When all is apprehended as being impermanent, what is
> > > > > apprehending? - orn
>
> > > > > Apprehension
>
> > > > > What is the nature of that mind that knows this? - orn
>
> > > > > Empty
>
> > > > > What is at the base (underneath) all words and concepts? - orn
>
> > > > > Nothing (see * below). There is no base where consciousness lands.
> > > > > Consciousness releases. Buddha used the metaphor of fire unbound.
> > When
> > > > > the fuel (of grasping) is exhausted, where does the fire go when it
> > > > > goes out? The question is nonsensical. In this unbound analogy, we
> > > > > cannot speak of luminosity et al.
>
> > > > > If something is “conceived” as being permanent, is that conception
> > > > > itself permanent? - orn
>
> > > > > Of course not, wait around long enough and it will disappear.
>
> > > > > -
>
> > > > > “Yes but there is a state of mind that is permanent? Really? …” – e
>
> > > > > Yes. - orn
>
> > > > > What in your experience is permanent Orn?
>
> > > > > -
>
> > > > > “…I agree it is not thinking. However, I don’t know about this
> > > > > eternalism. Buddha was emphatic about the 2 extremes of eternalism
> > > > > and
> > > > > annihilationism to be avoided for the middle way to be found. He did
> > > > > not say they needed to be avoided to then find some other kind of
> > > > > uber
> > > > > eternalism.” – e
>
> > > > > As I understand that tenet system, Gautama was talking about the
> > > > > GRASPING of those extremes. No? - orn
>
> > > > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html
> > > > > Nagarjuna mentions this sutra in MMK XV. Is the permanent basis of
> > the
> > > > > mind (the minds true nature) an eternal essence? If it is, are we
> > > > > still talking about Buddhism?
>
> > > > > -
>
> > > > > “…I really am just exploring and looking for some new meaning and
> > > > > not
> > > > > trying to destroy any old ones, etc. Lately I have come to see that
> > > > > everything is an interpretation so I am only questioning the old
> > > > > interpretations and seeing if they still hold up, etc. Thanks for
> > > > > going along!! “ – e
>
> > > > > The metaphor of exploring is quite appropriate and accurate. While
> > > > > one
> > > > > is ‘on the path’, differing levels of understanding will arise, stay
> > > > > for a bit and then recede… and finally disappear. - orn
>
> > > > > *Right but the way I see it, they just disappear, they don’t
> > disappear
> > > > > into some large container called mind.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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