On 3 Dec, 19:11, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > I see. Glad that's all cleared up. I'll just get a gun and head for > the closest mall now. > > I haven't read the Koran. I did stand watch with a Muslim for about 3 > years though. Learned a lot. Ate a lot of his wife's tasty food. > Found out I really like curry. What stood out with Abdul is his > complete devotion to Allah. He'd stop everything and pray and the > phone wouldn't get answered, alarms wouldn't get checked out and I > think time stopped for him for about 4 or 5 minutes. >
The concept is that, if you are devoted to Allah, Allah will note that and reward you in the life to come. Islam views the 'Hereafter' as being eternal, therefore in the long term, FAR more important than this temporal existence. > I found out revenge(according to him) was part of Islam. The concept of "an eye for an eye" is a part of the Torah, as well. So is that grounds for antisemitism? The Qur'an allows like-for-like retribution; however, it also discourages that and prefers that such vengeance NOT be enacted nor encouraged. As an example, if a man kills you wife, then you would have the right to kill that man. You would NOT, though, have the right to kill anyone else (like the murderer's wife, as a 'tit-for-tat' revenge). Only the person guilty of the murder would be allowed to be put to death by the offended individual. In the pre-Islam 'pagan-Arab' world, it was common for revenge to be taken against the entire family of the murderer. The Qur'an put an end to that by restricting retaliation to the offender alone. This is, without doubt, a step forward from their (the 'pagan- Arabs') previous practices. >This from a > guy that read from the book every single day. He spend a great deal > of time working to ruin our bosses life because he was angry about > being embarrassed by a public comment our boss had made on Abdul's > lack of commitment to the job that made everyone in the room laugh. > It is considered an offense to God to ridicule another indivdual. It's anti-social behaviour and encourages hatred. Abdul SHOULD have been offended by a boss who made others laugh at him. What was to gain by that? Respect for the bosses discriminating ridicule? Equally, everyone who laughed, joined in the ridicule and acted anti- socially. From what you describe, Abdul's reacted to ridicule, perhaps, in a poor fashion, but the question should be: why was he publicly ridiculed? If it was a work-related matter, his boss should have taken him aside and discussed it with him privately. Instead, 'the boss' publicly ridiculed him. Sounds like Abdul has the moral high ground here and, while he has a good reason to be angry, it might have been better to look for another place to work wwhere the boss wasn't a prat. > Abdul's opinions on the 'rights' of women were quite different then > what is normal here in the States. Arranged marraige, of course, for > starters. He was 24 years older then her. She walked behind him, > didn't speak in public, wore the burka, yadda yadda yadda. Real > progressive. Not. > The concept of arranged marriages is not particularly Islamic but cultural to many various peoples who have become muslim over time. Jews used to (and still do in some cases) arrange marriages due to their former cultural practices. As far as Islam is concerned, it is better to have sex within the sanctity of marriage than it is to commit fornication. Therefore, when people are of the age when they start to want to have sex, then the family tries to ensure that they are married, so as to prevent fornication. The wearing of a burkah is a personal choice and is not an Islamic requirement. Modest dress is the requirement. But 'modest dress' is open for interpretation. Personally, given the amount of xenophobic antisemitism that is Islamophobia, it takes a brave girl to wear a burkah in public. She's braver than one who wears a bikini. But which, I ask you, of the two, is more likely to be 'wolf-whistled' or otherwise harassed? There is no injunction in the Qur'an stipulating that a wife should walk behind her husband. This is another example of a cultural practice not an Islamic dictat. > That said, I don't think Abdul was capable of murder. This was way > before 9/11 so I don't know for sure how he would have reacted but I > have a clue. I was working with him when the Towers were bombed and > he expressed glee. No kidding excitement and pleasure. He must have > been ecstatic when the planes hit on 9/11. > But, of course, Islam would stand firmly against such action. It would stand against the terrorists and against those who got pleasure from their deeds. But 9/11 was intended to be a wake-up call to the West (America in particular) for their backing of Israeli oppression of Palestinians who are subjected to having their houses, markets and work-places bull-dozed by Israel and are given nowhere else to live or work. It is that kind of abject oppression that angers Muslims. > And, of course, I'll NEVER forget the footage of Palestinians > celebrating in the streets on that day. Truly disgusting. > Yup. But I bet you didn't know that that was months old footage and was not an actual reaction to 9/11. It was a media ploy used for scare-mongering and to promote Islamophobia and encourage backing an illegal war. Fell right into that trap, did you? So much for independent media. > I wonder, given your views expressed here Pat; what do you think of > when you think of 9/11? Sorrow or Celebration? Enquiring minds want > to know. I want to know. > I think, as I said above, its intent (by OBL) was to serve as a wake- up call to the West regarding the oppression of Palestinians. The ploy back-fired miserably and has only increased Western aggression against Muslims (eagerly backed by Neo-Con, Right-Wing, "Let's bring on Armageddon"-style [supposed] Christians who actually WANT a 'Final Crusade'). Of course I don't back terrorist tactics. For one thing, September 11th was my wedding anniversary. That didn't help. But, on a more human level, I was shocked for days when I saw it and was brought to tears on many occasions thinking about it and having it 'replay' in my mind. Terrorist tactics like suicide bombings are strictly forbidden by Islam and, therefore, should NOT be associated with it. The fact that many suicide bombings are carried out by people who profess to be Muslim is a shame against those individuals rather than a shame against Islam, as their actions demonstrate that they are, in fact, NOT Muslims at all. > -Don > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 40 AM, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On 2 Dec, 16:57, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Muslims will be conquered by the Chinese, perhaps. The only other > >> solution is to level their countries like we did Germany and Japan- > >> who, at least, were industrialized. The only thing Islam has going for > >> it are oil deposits in various countries. But we have water. > > > "The only thing Islam has going for it are oil deposits in various > > countries." > > > I take it, from that, that you have never read the Qur'an. The > > main gist of it (Islam/the Qur'an) is that mankind should not oppress > > one another and that we should care for the orphans and elderly and > > the poor and treat all individuals with respect. Much of the > > remainder is outlining examples of previous peoples who did NOT act > > that way and reminding the reader of how those peoples were > > destroyed. Also, there's a fair amount of instructions on how to > > maintain women's rights to inheritance and their right to be heard-- > > things that, in the West, women didn't get until the latter part of > > the 19th Century/early 20th century. I.e., the Qur'an was, with > > respect to women's rights, some 1300 years ahead of its time. > > The problems come in when Western society demands its right to be > > intoxicated and irascible to the point of outright destructive > > behaviour afterwards and the duty to oppress one another through usury > > and other ways (in the name of 'Survival of the Fittest', a euphemism > > for maintaining that animal instincts are the way forward!!) and > > Muslims don't understand why Western, supposedly civilised people, > > demand the right to act like idiots, screw up the environment and take > > as much as is possible from those who have the least. Muslims don't > > view that as civilised behaviour. > > With respect to the oil, it won't always be there, as the West is > > using it up and fouling the Earth with its waste products. After the > > oil is gone, what Islam will be left with is what they have had for > > 1400+ years...the moral high ground. > > >> On Dec 2, 10:45 am, fran the man <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > In a referendum last Sunday, 57.5% of the Swiss voted to ban minarets. > > >> > As right-wing populists cheered and liberal multi-culturalists were > >> > shocked, the Swiss decision reflects a deep problem for western > >> > democracies, particularly in Europe. How do you integrate a religious > >> > culture into a pluralist society, which has mutual tolerance as one of > >> > its basic principles, when significant groups in that culture reject > >> > many principles of that society which is trying to integrate them? Is > >> > this a signal that the meeting between western societies and Islam > >> > leads to irreconcilable differences? Or is the Swiss vote basically, > >> > or partly, an expression of deep-seated racism and subjective views of > >> > cultural superiority? > > >> > Some background: > > >> >http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,664231,00.html > > >> > Francis- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > ""Minds Eye"" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]. > > For more options, visit this group > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
