" If we had dozens of big time Islamic leaders here in the US publicly condemning countries like Saudia Arabia or Iran for perverting Islam I'd feel a WHOLE lot better about Islam in general."
Absolutely. The barriers though are plain : Saudi suzereignity, being the holder of Mecca and Medina ; petro dollar dependence ; not prepared enough to own Islam as one's own, not borrowed from Arabia ; and, dangerous repercussions from fundamentalists and militants in the society. In India, muslims have begun to speak up. But only after the destruction peaked and lasted beyond bearing. On Dec 6, 8:45 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > I'm glad you don't celebrate terrorism. We disagree on the > 'oppression' of Palestine by Israel. Their situation is caused more > by the despicable actions of their neighbors in Egypt, Syria and > Jordan then anything Israel does. Speaking of harsh ant-immigration > polices one need only look at these countries. Israel is just trying > to protect themselves. I think they have cause to be concerned about > their safety and take precautions, no? > > Here is a link to the 'celebration' I saw on that day. Are you sure > this is old footage? I know this is the 'exact' thing I saw because > that woman ululating is permanently etched on my brain. You can call > it cultural if you want to but I see Islam shaping the culture. The > same with how women are treated. Religion is culture. It is often > used to control the population and in countries where it is the State > religion this is exactly how it is used. In my opinion. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpYCzWcSLH0&feature=related > > I see girls in burkas every day here on campus. They often travel in > groups with each other and I rarely see them converse with western > kids. The Indians, the Asians(Chinese and Japanese, Korean, > Vietnamese) all intermingle with their fellow students. Not the > female Muslims for the most part that I have noticed. Granted, if > she's not swathed head to foot in flowing cloth I really don't know > nor am I interested in her religion. I'm not worried about Muslims > that don't mind assimilating a bit. It's the fundamentalists that > worry me. The difference I see in our 'cultures' is that we don't > honor kill our daughters for wearing bikinis. We may show our > displeasure by taking the keys to the T-bird or not paying for a week > in Mazatlan but we don't shoot them or run them over with the family > car. > > To be fair I think the Christians that play with poisonous snakes are > weird and freaky as well. The charismatics and hard-line anti > abortionist that support fire bombing clinics I also come out firmly > against. But these people are rare and don't control whole countries. > Can you at least see my point of view on this problem and understand > my concern? If we had dozens of big time Islamic leaders here in the > US publicly condemning countries like Saudia Arabia or Iran for > perverting Islam I'd feel a WHOLE lot better about Islam in general. > If this is happening it isn't getting much press because I don't know > about it. I've heard a few American converts speak out but they have > zero credibility with the real leadership which is firmly based in the > Middle East. I want the 12th Imam to come out and castigate his > fellow Muslims for perverting Jihad. I'm not holding my breath. > > -Don > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 7:23 AM, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On 3 Dec, 19:11, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I see. Glad that's all cleared up. I'll just get a gun and head for > >> the closest mall now. > > >> I haven't read the Koran. I did stand watch with a Muslim for about 3 > >> years though. Learned a lot. Ate a lot of his wife's tasty food. > >> Found out I really like curry. What stood out with Abdul is his > >> complete devotion to Allah. He'd stop everything and pray and the > >> phone wouldn't get answered, alarms wouldn't get checked out and I > >> think time stopped for him for about 4 or 5 minutes. > > > The concept is that, if you are devoted to Allah, Allah will note that > > and reward you in the life to come. Islam views the 'Hereafter' as > > being eternal, therefore in the long term, FAR more important than > > this temporal existence. > > >> I found out revenge(according to him) was part of Islam. > > > The concept of "an eye for an eye" is a part of the Torah, as well. > > So is that grounds for antisemitism? The Qur'an allows like-for-like > > retribution; however, it also discourages that and prefers that such > > vengeance NOT be enacted nor encouraged. As an example, if a man > > kills you wife, then you would have the right to kill that man. You > > would NOT, though, have the right to kill anyone else (like the > > murderer's wife, as a 'tit-for-tat' revenge). Only the person guilty > > of the murder would be allowed to be put to death by the offended > > individual. In the pre-Islam 'pagan-Arab' world, it was common for > > revenge to be taken against the entire family of the murderer. The > > Qur'an put an end to that by restricting retaliation to the offender > > alone. This is, without doubt, a step forward from their (the 'pagan- > > Arabs') previous practices. > > >>This from a > >> guy that read from the book every single day. He spend a great deal > >> of time working to ruin our bosses life because he was angry about > >> being embarrassed by a public comment our boss had made on Abdul's > >> lack of commitment to the job that made everyone in the room laugh. > > > It is considered an offense to God to ridicule another indivdual. > > It's anti-social behaviour and encourages hatred. Abdul SHOULD have > > been offended by a boss who made others laugh at him. What was to > > gain by that? Respect for the bosses discriminating ridicule? > > Equally, everyone who laughed, joined in the ridicule and acted anti- > > socially. From what you describe, Abdul's reacted to ridicule, > > perhaps, in a poor fashion, but the question should be: why was he > > publicly ridiculed? If it was a work-related matter, his boss should > > have taken him aside and discussed it with him privately. Instead, > > 'the boss' publicly ridiculed him. Sounds like Abdul has the moral > > high ground here and, while he has a good reason to be angry, it might > > have been better to look for another place to work wwhere the boss > > wasn't a prat. > > >> Abdul's opinions on the 'rights' of women were quite different then > >> what is normal here in the States. Arranged marraige, of course, for > >> starters. He was 24 years older then her. She walked behind him, > >> didn't speak in public, wore the burka, yadda yadda yadda. Real > >> progressive. Not. > > > The concept of arranged marriages is not particularly Islamic but > > cultural to many various peoples who have become muslim over time. > > Jews used to (and still do in some cases) arrange marriages due to > > their former cultural practices. > > As far as Islam is concerned, it is better to have sex within the > > sanctity of marriage than it is to commit fornication. Therefore, > > when people are of the age when they start to want to have sex, then > > the family tries to ensure that they are married, so as to prevent > > fornication. > > The wearing of a burkah is a personal choice and is not an Islamic > > requirement. Modest dress is the requirement. But 'modest dress' is > > open for interpretation. Personally, given the amount of xenophobic > > antisemitism that is Islamophobia, it takes a brave girl to wear a > > burkah in public. She's braver than one who wears a bikini. But > > which, I ask you, of the two, is more likely to be 'wolf-whistled' or > > otherwise harassed? > > There is no injunction in the Qur'an stipulating that a wife should > > walk behind her husband. This is another example of a cultural > > practice not an Islamic dictat. > > >> That said, I don't think Abdul was capable of murder. This was way > >> before 9/11 so I don't know for sure how he would have reacted but I > >> have a clue. I was working with him when the Towers were bombed and > >> he expressed glee. No kidding excitement and pleasure. He must have > >> been ecstatic when the planes hit on 9/11. > > > But, of course, Islam would stand firmly against such action. It > > would stand against the terrorists and against those who got pleasure > > from their deeds. But 9/11 was intended to be a wake-up call to the > > West (America in particular) for their backing of Israeli oppression > > of Palestinians who are subjected to having their houses, markets and > > work-places bull-dozed by Israel and are given nowhere else to live or > > work. It is that kind of abject oppression that angers Muslims. > > >> And, of course, I'll NEVER forget the footage of Palestinians > >> celebrating in the streets on that day. Truly disgusting. > > > Yup. But I bet you didn't know that that was months old footage and > > was not an actual reaction to 9/11. It was a media ploy used for > > scare-mongering and to promote Islamophobia and encourage backing an > > illegal war. Fell right into that trap, did you? So much for > > independent media. > > >> I wonder, given your views expressed here Pat; what do you think of > >> when you think of 9/11? Sorrow or Celebration? Enquiring minds want > >> to know. I want to know. > > > I think, as I said above, its intent (by OBL) was to serve as a wake- > > up call to the West regarding the oppression of Palestinians. The > > ploy back-fired miserably and has only increased Western aggression > > against Muslims (eagerly backed by Neo-Con, Right-Wing, "Let's bring > > on Armageddon"-style [supposed] Christians who actually WANT a 'Final > > Crusade'). Of course I don't back terrorist tactics. For one thing, > > September 11th was my wedding anniversary. That didn't help. But, on > > a more human level, I was shocked for days when I saw it and was > > brought to tears on many occasions thinking about it and having it > > 'replay' in my mind. Terrorist tactics like suicide bombings are > > strictly forbidden by Islam and, therefore, should NOT be associated > > with it. The fact that many suicide bombings are carried out by > > people who profess to be Muslim is a shame against those individuals > > rather than a shame against Islam, as their actions demonstrate that > > they are, in fact, NOT Muslims at all. > > >> -Don > > >> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 40 AM, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > On 2 Dec, 16:57, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Muslims > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
