Well! Even if we disagree, I like the way you think. Nothing wrong with defending what you have thought through so thoroughly.
I like your idea of M-theory to explain the 7 heavens above the 4 we know and experience. i have had similar thoughts myself before. I guess if a higher entity explained such sublte ideas to people whoi simply did not have the vocabulary to cope with it, it might come out a bit primitive. As an agnostic, I don't deny a creator, but refuse to bow to primitive notions, in my opinion, wholy written by men, about what such a creator would want from us. The universe is far too subtle and mysterious to deny at least the possibility of a creator, even if such a creator is totally indifferent to our daily strivings for survival. On Feb 12, 3:16 pm, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > On 10 Feb, 14:07, Errol <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > On Feb 10, 2:50 pm, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 10 Feb, 05:31, Errol <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I thought you were trying to impugn claims made by the God of Abraham > > > that could be (or have been) disproven by science. The God of Abraham > > > Himself impugned the New and Old Testaments in the Qur'an. So, > > > basically, you were agreeing WITH the God of Abraham that those > > > previous books have been tampered with/corrupted in some way. The > > > whole purpose OF the Qur'an was to set the record straight. And the > > > claims made IN it (that is, those of scientific value) have only been > > > supported by scienctific findings, later. I don't blame you for not > > > trying to impugn the Qur'an; it's nigh on impossible. > > > Fine then, you're on > > > Quran. 22:65 > > > Do you not see that Allah has made subservient to you whatsoever is in > > the earth and the ships running in the sea by His command? And He > > withholds the heaven FROM FALLING ON THE EARTH except with His > > permission; most surely Allah is Compassionate, Merciful to men. > > > So, the sky above us is something heavy and hard which could cause > > serious damage, even kill people, if it were to fall down. That > > certainly is scientific nonsense. > > > Q. 35:41 > > > Verily! Allah grasps the heavens and the earth LEST THEY MOVE away > > from their places, and if they were TO MOVE away from their places, > > there is not one that could grasp them after Him. Truly, He is Ever > > Most Forbearing, Oft Forgiving. > > > So, the heavens and earth are stationary? > > Remember Einstein? Only when an object is in free fall is it > motionless with respect to relativity. The grasp, is gravity. And > the means of that grasp, at leat in my theory, is the fact that our > space-time expands THROUGH the graviton. Which is why we cannot > detect it. We're IN it. And THAT is how Allah grasps both the > heavens (ther Calabi-Yau space) and the Earth (space-time). It is > done through geometry. This passage is very indicative of both > special relativity and M-Theory. 'Their places' alludes to their > locations with respect to one another. This isn't talking about the > sky and the surface of the Earrh, it's talking about the relationship > between the Calabi-Yau space (heaven) and our 4-D space-time (Earth). > > > One Muslim website candidly admits that the heavens and earth are in > > fact stationary according to the Quran: > > > Question: > > ASSALAM-O-ALAIKUM, WHAT IS THE RULING OF SHARIA ON THE MOVEMENT OF > > EARTH. > > GIVE EXPLANATION. > > > Answer: > > According to the teaching of Quran and Hadith, the sky and earth ARE > > STATIONARY and planets rotate. It is the sun that moves around the > > earth WHILE THE EARTH DOES NOT MOVE AROUND THE SUN. > > Which is, whilst historically interesting and Ptolemaic, is of no real > bearing here. Western Science through Ptolemy held the very same > thing. The Qur'an was written before Copernicus, so the > interpretations of the people will be in keeping with THEIR knowledge > not the knowledge of God. I can interpret the same text in terms of > String Theory and Special Relativity. They couldn't. > > > Q. 71:15-20 > > > Have you not regarded how God created seven heavens one upon another, > > and set the moon therein for a light and the sun for a lamp? > > > Oh really? > > Are you familiar with M-Theory? beyond our 4-D space-time, M-Theory > holds that there are 7 other dimensions that are purely spatial, i.e., > eternal. Now, what would YOU call eternal space? Heaven isn't a bad > term. Of course, there are, in Islamic cosmolgy, 7 Hells, as well. > But this can be an effect of symmetry. And symmetries are what > resolves all forces into one. The fact that only some places are > visble to us, is irrelevant. I can't see Rome from London, but it > doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. > > > Q. 78:6-7 > > > Have WE not made the earth AS A BED, And the mountains AS PEGS? > > Simple analogy. What are the Arabic terms used and from what verb- > stems do they derive? Once we know that, we can look at the other > tenses and conjugations of the original verb to see what other > allusions are being made here. > > > One of many which suggests that the earth is flat > > > From the Muslim traditions > > > Here are the traditions which renowned Muslim historian al-Tabari > > transmitted regarding the meaning of surah 68:1. He basically repeats > > what Ibn Kathir wrote. > > It would have been good if you'd quoted 68:1. Here it is: > > Nun. By the Pen and the (Record) which (men) write, > > Now the 'Nun' at the beginning is only a single character, the letter > Nun. In English it would be "n". There have been varous attempts to > describe the meanings of the single letters or groups of letters that > appear at the beginning of some surahs, there's no need to go into it > here. Firstly, 'the Pen', is an alluson to the word of God. That is, > the means through which God creates--His WORD. The Record is usually > an allusion (in MY interpretation) to the space-time continnum, which > stands as a permanent record of everything that exists throughout all > space and time. > > > Someone might say: If it is as you have described, namely, that God > > created the earth before the heaven, then what is the meaning of the > > statement of Ibn ‘Abbas told all of you by Wasil b. ‘Abd al-A‘la al- > > Asadi- Muhammad b. Fudayl- al-A‘mash- Abu Zabyan- Ibn ‘Abbas: The > > first thing God created is the Pen. God then said to it: Write!, > > whereupon the Pen asked: What shall I write, my lord! God replied: > > Write what is predestined! > >He continued: And the Pen proceeded to > > (write) whatever is predestined and gong to be to the Coming of the > > Hour. God then lifted up the water vapor and split the heavens off > > from it. > > Here is an allusion. The Arabic used at the time had no words for > 'matter' and 'anti-matter', as we know them today. During the period > of 'inflation', these two (matter and anti-matter) acted as fluids > (thus the words pointing towards water and vapour, which are both > 'fluid') becames separated (also, the heavens[the Calabi-Yau > dimensions] would have been compactified at this point, and their > compactification is another form of separation.). Science bears this > out but cannot, yet, explain how. We know that, somehow, the anti- > matter 'went away'. But no one knows where or how, much less why. > Shall I tell you? > > The antimatter was removed by God in order to form the outer shell of > the medium through which space-time expands. This shell was moved FAR > away from the expanding space-time, but acts as a final boundary, > outside of which there is NOTHING. This boundary is called (in the > Qur'an) 'the Face of God', much like a cube has 6 faces. This is WHY > space-time expands, as the opposing charge of the anti-matter shell > attracts it. In fact, latest findings seem to suggest that the rate > of space-time's expansion is increasing. This would be expected, if > we were, finally, approaching that boundary. Ever put two magnets > together where their opposite poles are towards one another? As you > move them closer and closer, there's a point at which the two are > drawn together VERY quickly. In the case of a space-time consisting > primarily of matter and an outer shell to the medium through which > that expands being made of anti-matter, this collision would be > completely catastrophic to the entire universe. And NOW you know the > physics behind Judgement Day. If space-time is already expanding at a > faster rate than it was just 100 years ago, that's HIGHLY indicative > that Judgement Day is NOT that far off. > > >Then God created THE FISH (nun), AND THE EARTH WAS SPREAD OUT > > UPON ITS BACK. > >The fish became agitated, with the result that the > > earth was shaken up. > >It was steadied BY MEANS OF THE MOUNTAINS, for > > they indeed proudly (tower) over the earth. > > Here's where the explanation of al-Tabari REALLY breaks down. I won't > continue to defend his interpretation other than to say that, for his > time and knowing his experience and knowledge of Special Relativity > and String Theory, what else would he say? He was a product of his > time. > > > This is all far too lengthy to quote extensively but in summary > > Thank God. I wouldn't have bothered. The summary below is so far > from the facts as to be risible. > > > > > > > Allah has spread out or flattened the earth on the back of a great > > fish (or whale). > > Allah created mountains to keep the earth from shaking due to the > > movement of the fish. > > The fish is floating in some extra-terrestrial water. > > The water is upon a rock. > > This rock is on the back of an angel. > > The angel himself is standing upon a rock. > > This other rock is supported by wind which is neither in the heavens > > nor the earth! > > Other traditions say that the great fish is underneath the seventh > > earth. > > On the fish’s back there is a rock the size of the heavens and earth. > > There is an ox upon this rock having 40,000 horns! > > Furthermore, this ox supports all the seven earths upon its back! > > Other traditions say that the ox is supported by the fish. > > There is a sea above the seventh heaven. > > Finally, above this seventh heaven there are eight mountain goats! > > > Very scientific I imagine. but wait there's a lot more. > > > I lived in Saudi arabia for many years and was given a great deal of > > literature which i would love to share with you. The literature in > > Saudi has not been westernised to edit out what we would otherwise > > consider ludicrous, or even downright funny, but I first await your > > response to the above > > You're right. It's very laughable. But I've thought about all of > these things from a view outside the box and there ARE physics to back > it up (well, the separation of the Waters concept and a Final > Judgement Day--not al-Tabari's interpretation of Creation). But it > takes a knowledge of extra-dimensional physics to make sense of it. > There's an incredible power in geometry and, of course, the Saudi's > have been heavily influenced by the Wahhabis, which does ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. 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