Molly as I read what you posted about Ken Wilber for some reason it reminded me of a situation I was involved in 25+ years ago and a catholic (roman) priest was giving a lecture on the different levels of spiritual development from the pew warmer to the super saint and what characteristics each level displayed. This is not the result of one mans thinking but rather of what has been observered over two hundred centuries..
I didn't hang around for the whole thing because people were getting the wrong impression about this old drunk and my volenteer work.. you might look into it or maybe Francis can shed some light on to the topic,, it was fascinating though well worth exploring Allan On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > I applaud PSK's understanding that "cause and effect" operates > differently in different states of consciousness - a notion probably > best covered by Ken Wilber: > > http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Ken_Wilber > > and particularly in his Wilber-Combs Lattice, illustrating the > similarities of different models of conscious development, and > changing awareness that results. Cause and effect to one who has > little or no ego awareness, looks for one person or thing to "cause" > one or more effects in the internal or external world (pre-rational > and rational states.) Cause and effect to one who as realized a more > symbiotic state of awareness in a non dual state, understands the > transparency and non duality of the internal/external realities, and > thus, the more dynamic nature of "cause and effect" as one movement > instead of two separate occurrences (transrational state.) What seems > to be a stream of individual events that include separate entities and > identities effecting and causing in prerational and rational states, > become what IS, with a more worldcentric view in transrational states. > > Keep up the good work, kid. > > On Apr 13, 2:36 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > “i think it works both ways....we alter the 'cause' and so alter the > > 'effect'....” – PSK > > > > At first glance, I rebel at the notion PSK. Yet, perhaps if you broke > > it down somewhat…and showed us exactly how this works, I might be able > > to change my view. > > > > Today I was contemplating this very thing. I found that it was not my > > will that caused my body to be born. Nor was it my will to invent the > > very language nor any of the words or concepts we are using in this > > discussion either. It is not my will to even survive…even though this > > too is ‘innate’ in the sense that an organism’s function is to live > > and survive. > > > > Many (me included) embrace the notion that at “the beginning” > > everything was set in motion and all was and is predetermined. Yes, > > this is only one form of teleology, but it’s apropos to our current > > discussion. > > > > So, again, perhaps some unpacking of how ‘we’ in fact do stuff i.e. > > “alter the ‘cause’”, OK? Thanks > > > > On Apr 12, 10:11 pm, "pol.science kid" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > i think it works both ways....we alter the 'cause' and so alter the > > > 'effect'.... > > > > > On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 9:49 PM, ornamentalmind > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > So PSK, you believe that there is no cause and effect?...that somehow > > > > 'we' can actually change the apparent progression of events? > > > > Interesting.... > > > > > > On Apr 10, 1:20 am, "pol.science kid" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > all your posts seem to say one thing " nothings new.. wat has > been... > > > > > has been and will be" ... kind of > > > > > > > On Apr 5, 6:29 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > “…which makes us enemies of each other The state is now bigger > than us > > > > > > mortal beings…” – PSK > > > > > > > > Yet again, I just don’t see it. How is ‘the state’ bigger today > than > > > > > > in, say, the days of Rome?...of ancient Egypt? And, I’m not so > sure it > > > > > > has to do with size either. I’m guessing the issue is perceived > > > > > > power. . . which, again, I just don’t see as being any more or > less > > > > > > than has been reported in the past > > > > > > > > On Apr 5, 6:56 am, "pol.science kid" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > In the last post an evolved Mind was being discussed…here’s > what I > > > > > > > think…(it lacks structure...and very naive but please be > > > > > > > patient ...) > > > > > > > The Mind continues to evolve….It is a manifestation of the much > > > > larger > > > > > > > Process...The process from which we source the creation of > > > > intelligent > > > > > > > life. When one sees oneself in isolation from the Process arise > the > > > > > > > existential tendencies... An evolved mind I suppose is one with > the > > > > > > > open eye...the Minds eye... (One of the reasons I love this > group is > > > > > > > the great name)…to put it simply there is the higher self and > the > > > > > > > lower self inside everyone...we are constantly pulled down by > our > > > > > > > visceral and basic tendencies (lower self)...and not everyone > cares > > > > to > > > > > > > realize their higher self..I guess that’s why great thinkers of > the > > > > > > > past incorporated their ideas into simple doctrines to follow > because > > > > > > > they certainly had an idea of an evolved and enlightened > society but > > > > > > > also knew that not every person is a philosopher so it was > propagated > > > > > > > as religion a lifestyle which would earn you great spiritual > > > > dividends… > > > > > > > of course over time it got corrupted as a means of monopolizing > power > > > > > > > over society by a learned few..That is one of the main problems > of > > > > our > > > > > > > society today…we tend to forget the basic idea behind > everything…and > > > > > > > let institutions get bigger than us…what began as an > explanation for > > > > > > > unexplained phenomena (science being not so developed then) and > an > > > > > > > attempt to enforce some moral code, has become bigger than > us…rides > > > > > > > over us and is the plague of our times…a extra and outdated > baggage > > > > > > > from the past…it has outgrown its relevance today…similarly the > > > > STATE… > > > > > > > which began as an attempt to organize social and political > life…from > > > > > > > chiefdoms to countries it has transformed…and with it has grown > the > > > > > > > evil of patriotism(not to mention the violence to determine > what is > > > > > > > the best way to organize political life)…which makes us enemies > of > > > > > > > each other The state is now bigger than us mortal > beings…Identities… > > > > > > > ethnicity…language…caste etc… we seem to need them to validate > our > > > > > > > existence…the burning question of Who am I…I think I went a > little > > > > off > > > > > > > the mark… what I want to say is that…The Mind ..Born out of > flux > > > > > > > desperately seeks to find permanence(so its attachment to > symbols)…as > > > > > > > the mind is the smaller functioning unit of the bigger Whole…it > also > > > > > > > tries to establish itself while contributing to the > ‘process’…thus > > > > > > > emerges our ego and sense of ‘self’…the Society is a collective > body > > > > > > > of the individual units…also seeks the same permanence…and so > it > > > > > > > creates institutions and preserves them…Change always comes In > some > > > > > > > kind of revolution(similarly In an enlightened individual…he > forms > > > > his > > > > > > > own individual ideas against what he has been brought up > believing > > > > )…a > > > > > > > mutilation from the past…but occur it must…because permanency > is not > > > > > > > the natural state of things… > > > > > > > There are I think certain universal truths which must be and > are > > > > > > > arrived at…these are the key points of our evolution…they are > arrived > > > > > > > at through the smaller individual units…taking the form of > Einstein > > > > or > > > > > > > whatever;-)…like Molly mentioned communication is a very imp. > Factor > > > > > > > for growth…the Mind does not grow in isolation…the society is > really > > > > a > > > > > > > two way street I think…while the individual unit grows and > evolves in > > > > > > > relation to it…it also acts as an oppressor of the individual… > Don’t > > > > > > > worry Ash I think the symbols will evolve on their own…. > > > > > > > What say my fellows?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > > ""Minds Eye"" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > [email protected]<minds-eye%[email protected]> > <minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com> > > > > . > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.-Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<minds-eye%[email protected]> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en. > > -- ( ) I_D Allan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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