On 14 Apr, 20:21, RP <[email protected]> wrote: > We are free to think and act but our choice is bound subtly to > motivating forces within and outside us. >
Moreso by the Space-time continuum itself, as it contains, by definition, ALL of space and time with nothing missing. Thus, the future is just as much extant as is the past; the difference is that we have a 'memory' of the past but have no such devise that allows us to view the future. Imagine what we would think of free will if we had access to the future but none to the past. Or just no access either way. Time-blindedness affects us in very subtle ways and our lack of ability to see into the future makes us believe that the future is not extant or 'fixed' yet. But that was debunked by Special Relativity in 1905. It's a shame that most of humanity refuses to accept the philosophical implications of SR. I would re-word your statement above to read: (It appears that) we are free to think and act but our choice is bound (by the events already extant in the space-time continuum). > On Apr 13, 6:04 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Everything we do is predetermined? That is cow dung at its best. > > > We have choice, the world is totally diverse, while some are into mass > > killing others are into basking in the warm sun on a tropical beach. > > > On Apr 13, 11:33 am, RP <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Everything we do is predetermined, but we are the agents and as such > > > what all of us are doing is changing and shaping the future. All the > > > sciences are a result of human endeavour, if people are prolonging > > > death through bypass surgery and the rest it is due to concerted > > > action. For any cogent action a basic belief that we are free is > > > required, then only can there be zest and enthusiasm in life. It is > > > only when we cosider ourselves to be free that we can hold anyone to > > > be accountable , otherwise there is no sense in life. No matter how > > > much bound a person considers himself to be , he is happy in his > > > triumphs and sad in his failures.My will may be bound but when I > > > act , it is I who am acting and thus to all intents and purposes I am > > > free. What all the individuals are doing today is deciding the future > > > to a very large extent. > > > > On Apr 12, 11:36 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > “i think it works both ways....we alter the 'cause' and so alter the > > > > 'effect'....” – PSK > > > > > At first glance, I rebel at the notion PSK. Yet, perhaps if you broke > > > > it down somewhat…and showed us exactly how this works, I might be able > > > > to change my view. > > > > > Today I was contemplating this very thing. I found that it was not my > > > > will that caused my body to be born. Nor was it my will to invent the > > > > very language nor any of the words or concepts we are using in this > > > > discussion either. It is not my will to even survive…even though this > > > > too is ‘innate’ in the sense that an organism’s function is to live > > > > and survive. > > > > > Many (me included) embrace the notion that at “the beginning” > > > > everything was set in motion and all was and is predetermined. Yes, > > > > this is only one form of teleology, but it’s apropos to our current > > > > discussion. > > > > > So, again, perhaps some unpacking of how ‘we’ in fact do stuff i.e. > > > > “alter the ‘cause’”, OK? Thanks > > > > > On Apr 12, 10:11 pm, "pol.science kid" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > i think it works both ways....we alter the 'cause' and so alter the > > > > > 'effect'.... > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 9:49 PM, ornamentalmind > > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > So PSK, you believe that there is no cause and effect?...that > > > > > > somehow > > > > > > 'we' can actually change the apparent progression of events? > > > > > > Interesting.... > > > > > > > On Apr 10, 1:20 am, "pol.science kid" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > all your posts seem to say one thing " nothings new.. wat has > > > > > > > been... > > > > > > > has been and will be" ... kind of > > > > > > > > On Apr 5, 6:29 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > “…which makes us enemies of each other The state is now bigger > > > > > > > > than us > > > > > > > > mortal beings…” – PSK > > > > > > > > > Yet again, I just don’t see it. How is ‘the state’ bigger today > > > > > > > > than > > > > > > > > in, say, the days of Rome?...of ancient Egypt? And, I’m not so > > > > > > > > sure it > > > > > > > > has to do with size either. I’m guessing the issue is perceived > > > > > > > > power. . . which, again, I just don’t see as being any more or > > > > > > > > less > > > > > > > > than has been reported in the past > > > > > > > > > On Apr 5, 6:56 am, "pol.science kid" <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > In the last post an evolved Mind was being discussed…here’s > > > > > > > > > what I > > > > > > > > > think…(it lacks structure...and very naive but please be > > > > > > > > > patient ...) > > > > > > > > > The Mind continues to evolve….It is a manifestation of the > > > > > > > > > much > > > > > > larger > > > > > > > > > Process...The process from which we source the creation of > > > > > > intelligent > > > > > > > > > life. When one sees oneself in isolation from the Process > > > > > > > > > arise the > > > > > > > > > existential tendencies... An evolved mind I suppose is one > > > > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > > > open eye...the Minds eye... (One of the reasons I love this > > > > > > > > > group is > > > > > > > > > the great name)…to put it simply there is the higher self and > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > lower self inside everyone...we are constantly pulled down by > > > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > visceral and basic tendencies (lower self)...and not everyone > > > > > > > > > cares > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > realize their higher self..I guess that’s why great thinkers > > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > past incorporated their ideas into simple doctrines to follow > > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > they certainly had an idea of an evolved and enlightened > > > > > > > > > society but > > > > > > > > > also knew that not every person is a philosopher so it was > > > > > > > > > propagated > > > > > > > > > as religion a lifestyle which would earn you great spiritual > > > > > > dividends… > > > > > > > > > of course over time it got corrupted as a means of > > > > > > > > > monopolizing power > > > > > > > > > over society by a learned few..That is one of the main > > > > > > > > > problems of > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > society today…we tend to forget the basic idea behind > > > > > > > > > everything…and > > > > > > > > > let institutions get bigger than us…what began as an > > > > > > > > > explanation for > > > > > > > > > unexplained phenomena (science being not so developed then) > > > > > > > > > and an > > > > > > > > > attempt to enforce some moral code, has become bigger than > > > > > > > > > us…rides > > > > > > > > > over us and is the plague of our times…a extra and outdated > > > > > > > > > baggage > > > > > > > > > from the past…it has outgrown its relevance today…similarly > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > STATE… > > > > > > > > > which began as an attempt to organize social and political > > > > > > > > > life…from > > > > > > > > > chiefdoms to countries it has transformed…and with it has > > > > > > > > > grown the > > > > > > > > > evil of patriotism(not to mention the violence to determine > > > > > > > > > what is > > > > > > > > > the best way to organize political life)…which makes us > > > > > > > > > enemies of > > > > > > > > > each other The state is now bigger than us mortal > > > > > > > > > beings…Identities… > > > > > > > > > ethnicity…language…caste etc… we seem to need them to > > > > > > > > > validate our > > > > > > > > > existence…the burning question of Who am I…I think I went a > > > > > > > > > little > > > > > > off > > > > > > > > > the mark… what I want to say is that…The Mind ..Born out of > > > > > > > > > flux > > > > > > > > > desperately seeks to find permanence(so its attachment to > > > > > > > > > symbols)…as > > > > > > > > > the mind is the smaller functioning unit of the bigger > > > > > > > > > Whole…it also > > > > > > > > > tries to establish itself while contributing to the > > > > > > > > > ‘process’…thus > > > > > > > > > emerges our ego and sense of ‘self’…the Society is a > > > > > > > > > collective body > > > > > > > > > of the individual units…also seeks the same permanence…and so > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > creates institutions and preserves them…Change always comes > > > > > > > > > In some > > > > > > > > > kind of revolution(similarly In an enlightened individual…he > > > > > > > > > forms > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > own individual ideas against what he has been brought up > > > > > > > > > believing > > > > > > )…a > > > > > > > > > mutilation from the past…but occur it must…because permanency > > > > > > > > > is not > > > > > > > > > the natural state of things… > > > > > > > > > There are I think certain universal truths which must be and > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > arrived at…these are the key points of our evolution…they are > > > > > > > > > arrived > > > > > > > > > at through the smaller individual units…taking the form of > > > > > > > > > Einstein > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > whatever;-)…like Molly mentioned communication is a very imp. > > > > > > > > > Factor > > > > > > > > > for growth…the Mind does not grow in isolation…the society is > > > > > > > > > really > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > two way street I think…while the individual unit grows and > > > > > > > > > evolves in > > > > > > > > > relation to it…it also acts as an oppressor of the > > > > > > > > > individual… Don’t > > > > > > > > > worry Ash I think the symbols will evolve on their own…. > > > > > > > > > What say my fellows?- Hide quoted text - 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