On 16 Apr, 17:08, RP <[email protected]> wrote: > It is not the future which binds us , even though it is very well > extant ; it is the past and the present which make up our nature. We > act and react in the environment according to our nature and as the > environment itself is an unfolding of the cosmos everything is certain > and all the choices of will though free are yet subtly bound. >
Whilst I see what you're saying, we are bound by those events which are, relatively, events of our own future. You're correct that our 'nature' enters into this and binds us in programmatical ways, as does our nurture, but the overarching bind is performed by those acts/ events which are extant in space-time. Those acts which are in space- time WILL be performed, those that are not, will not be (with respect to the past, those events which HAVE happened, have happened, and those which did not, did not). The 'unfolding' of the cosmos is only an apparent unfolding due to our existing on that very edge of the expansion of space-time, which is the only place where movement (in the form of its expansion) of space-time exists, thus the only place available where experiences can 'occur'. The rest of the events are either locked into the past or locked into the future. Only at that 'edge of expansion' can we perceive a movement of space-time, thus, a perception of a flow to time and the perception of spatial objects moving through space. All our 'choices' are simply events. And those events in the future are incalculable, thus shrouded in mystery and, apparently 'free'. But those events are just as extant as any in the past. The difference is that we have some access to past events via memory. Yet, our memories can be faulty and we never remember things down to the quantum level, so they serve as only a rough guide rather than a decent predictor. And, none of us have access to the entirety of space-time that has passed, thus preventing us from ever accurately predicting the future. > On Apr 16, 4:58 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On 14 Apr, 20:21, RP <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > We are free to think and act but our choice is bound subtly to > > > motivating forces within and outside us. > > > Moreso by the Space-time continuum itself, as it contains, by > > definition, ALL of space and time with nothing missing. Thus, the > > future is just as much extant as is the past; the difference is that > > we have a 'memory' of the past but have no such devise that allows us > > to view the future. Imagine what we would think of free will if we > > had access to the future but none to the past. Or just no access > > either way. Time-blindedness affects us in very subtle ways and our > > lack of ability to see into the future makes us believe that the > > future is not extant or 'fixed' yet. But that was debunked by Special > > Relativity in 1905. It's a shame that most of humanity refuses to > > accept the philosophical implications of SR. > > > I would re-word your statement above to read: (It appears that) we are > > free to think and act but our choice is bound (by the events already > > extant in the space-time continuum). > > > > On Apr 13, 6:04 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Everything we do is predetermined? That is cow dung at its best. > > > > > We have choice, the world is totally diverse, while some are into mass > > > > killing others are into basking in the warm sun on a tropical beach. > > > > > On Apr 13, 11:33 am, RP <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Everything we do is predetermined, but we are the agents and as such > > > > > what all of us are doing is changing and shaping the future. All the > > > > > sciences are a result of human endeavour, if people are prolonging > > > > > death through bypass surgery and the rest it is due to concerted > > > > > action. For any cogent action a basic belief that we are free is > > > > > required, then only can there be zest and enthusiasm in life. It is > > > > > only when we cosider ourselves to be free that we can hold anyone to > > > > > be accountable , otherwise there is no sense in life. No matter how > > > > > much bound a person considers himself to be , he is happy in his > > > > > triumphs and sad in his failures.My will may be bound but when I > > > > > act , it is I who am acting and thus to all intents and purposes I am > > > > > free. What all the individuals are doing today is deciding the future > > > > > to a very large extent. > > > > > > On Apr 12, 11:36 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > “i think it works both ways....we alter the 'cause' and so alter the > > > > > > 'effect'....” – PSK > > > > > > > At first glance, I rebel at the notion PSK. Yet, perhaps if you > > > > > > broke > > > > > > it down somewhat…and showed us exactly how this works, I might be > > > > > > able > > > > > > to change my view. > > > > > > > Today I was contemplating this very thing. I found that it was not > > > > > > my > > > > > > will that caused my body to be born. Nor was it my will to invent > > > > > > the > > > > > > very language nor any of the words or concepts we are using in this > > > > > > discussion either. It is not my will to even survive…even though > > > > > > this > > > > > > too is ‘innate’ in the sense that an organism’s function is to live > > > > > > and survive. > > > > > > > Many (me included) embrace the notion that at “the beginning” > > > > > > everything was set in motion and all was and is predetermined. Yes, > > > > > > this is only one form of teleology, but it’s apropos to our current > > > > > > discussion. > > > > > > > So, again, perhaps some unpacking of how ‘we’ in fact do stuff i.e. > > > > > > “alter the ‘cause’”, OK? Thanks > > > > > > > On Apr 12, 10:11 pm, "pol.science kid" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > i think it works both ways....we alter the 'cause' and so alter > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > 'effect'.... > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 9:49 PM, ornamentalmind > > > > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > > So PSK, you believe that there is no cause and effect?...that > > > > > > > > somehow > > > > > > > > 'we' can actually change the apparent progression of events? > > > > > > > > Interesting.... > > > > > > > > > On Apr 10, 1:20 am, "pol.science kid" <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > all your posts seem to say one thing " nothings new.. wat has > > > > > > > > > been... > > > > > > > > > has been and will be" ... kind of > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 5, 6:29 pm, ornamentalmind > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > “…which makes us enemies of each other The state is now > > > > > > > > > > bigger than us > > > > > > > > > > mortal beings…” – PSK > > > > > > > > > > > Yet again, I just don’t see it. How is ‘the state’ bigger > > > > > > > > > > today than > > > > > > > > > > in, say, the days of Rome?...of ancient Egypt? And, I’m not > > > > > > > > > > so sure it > > > > > > > > > > has to do with size either. I’m guessing the issue is > > > > > > > > > > perceived > > > > > > > > > > power. . . which, again, I just don’t see as being any more > > > > > > > > > > or less > > > > > > > > > > than has been reported in the past > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 5, 6:56 am, "pol.science kid" <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > In the last post an evolved Mind was being > > > > > > > > > > > discussed…here’s what I > > > > > > > > > > > think…(it lacks structure...and very naive but please be > > > > > > > > > > > patient ...) > > > > > > > > > > > The Mind continues to evolve….It is a manifestation of > > > > > > > > > > > the much > > > > > > > > larger > > > > > > > > > > > Process...The process from which we source the creation of > > > > > > > > intelligent > > > > > > > > > > > life. When one sees oneself in isolation from the Process > > > > > > > > > > > arise the > > > > > > > > > > > existential tendencies... An evolved mind I suppose is > > > > > > > > > > > one with the > > > > > > > > > > > open eye...the Minds eye... (One of the reasons I love > > > > > > > > > > > this group is > > > > > > > > > > > the great name)…to put it simply there is the higher self > > > > > > > > > > > and the > > > > > > > > > > > lower self inside everyone...we are constantly pulled > > > > > > > > > > > down by our > > > > > > > > > > > visceral and basic tendencies (lower self)...and not > > > > > > > > > > > everyone cares > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > realize their higher self..I guess that’s why great > > > > > > > > > > > thinkers of the > > > > > > > > > > > past incorporated their ideas into simple doctrines to > > > > > > > > > > > follow because > > > > > > > > > > > they certainly had an idea of an evolved and enlightened > > > > > > > > > > > society but > > > > > > > > > > > also knew that not every person is a philosopher so it > > > > > > > > > > > was propagated > > > > > > > > > > > as religion a lifestyle which would earn you great > > > > > > > > > > > spiritual > > > > > > > > dividends… > > > > > > > > > > > of course over time it got corrupted as a means of > > > > > > > > > > > monopolizing power > > > > > > > > > > > over society by a learned few..That is one of the main > > > > > > > > > > > problems of > > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > > > society today…we tend to forget the basic idea behind > > > > > > > > > > > everything…and > > > > > > > > > > > let institutions get bigger than us…what began as an > > > > > > > > > > > explanation for > > > > > > > > > > > unexplained phenomena (science being not so developed > > > > > > > > > > > then) and an > > > > > > > > > > > attempt to enforce some moral code, has become bigger > > > > > > > > > > > than us…rides > > > > > > > > > > > over us and is the plague of our times…a extra and > > > > > > > > > > > outdated baggage > > > > > > > > > > > from the past…it has outgrown its relevance > > > > > > > > > > > today…similarly the > > > > > > > > STATE… > > > > > > > > > > > which began as an attempt to organize social and > > > > > > > > > > > political life…from > > > > > > > > > > > chiefdoms to countries it has transformed…and with it has > > > > > > > > > > > grown the > > > > > > > > > > > evil of patriotism(not to mention the violence to > > > > > > > > > > > determine what is > > > > > > > > > > > the best way to organize political life)…which makes us > > > > > > > > > > > enemies of > > > > > > > > > > > each other The state is now bigger than us mortal > > > > > > > > > > > beings…Identities… > > > > > > > > > > > ethnicity…language…caste etc… we seem to need them to > > > > > > > > > > > validate our > > > > > > > > > > > existence…the burning question of Who am I…I think I went > > > > > > > > > > > a little > > > > > > > > off > > > > > > > > > > > the mark… what I want to say is that…The Mind ..Born out > > > > > > > > > > > of flux > > > > > > > > > > > desperately seeks to find permanence(so its attachment to > > > > > > > > > > > symbols)…as > > > > > > > > > > > the mind is the smaller functioning unit of the bigger > > > > > > > > > > > Whole…it also > > > > > > > > > > > tries to establish itself while contributing to the > > > > > > > > > > > ‘process’…thus > > > > > > > > > > > emerges our ego and sense of ‘self’…the Society is a > > > > > > > > > > > collective body > > > > > > > > > > > of the individual units…also seeks the same > > > > > > > > > > > permanence…and so it > > > > > > > > > > > creates institutions and preserves them…Change always > > > > > > > > > > > comes In some > > > > > > > > > > > kind of revolution(similarly In an enlightened > > > > > > > > > > > individual…he forms > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > > own individual ideas against what he has been brought up > > > > > > > > > > > believing > > > > > > > > )…a > > > > > > > > > > > mutilation from the past…but occur it must…because > > > > > > > > > > > permanency is not > > > > > > > > > > > the natural state of things… > > > > > > > > > > > There are I think certain universal truths which must be > > > > > > > > > > > and are > > > > > > > > > > > arrived at…these are the key points of our evolution…they > > > > > > > > > > > are arrived > > > > > > > > > > > at through the smaller individual units…taking the form > > > > > > > > > > > of Einstein > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > whatever;-)…like Molly mentioned communication is a very > > > > > > > > > > > imp. Factor > > > > > > > > > > > for growth…the Mind does not grow in isolation…the > > > > > > > > > > > society is really > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > two way street I think…while the > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
