Even Marx and Lenin thought there was some good in capitalism, at least in markets. The problem was always to do with competition producing monopoly once one lot got really efficient. Capitalism at least freed us up from feudalism. My own suspicion is that even these arguments failed to take into account what the historic conditions and mechanisms of trade and power had really been about. I don't believe in capitalism because I'm sure it's as mythical and religious stories and both communism and democracy have roots in societies in which the rich came up with the ideas on the backs of work done by slaves. We are overdue for our own ideas and something that allows for very different people in it. I think we had some brief eddies some years back when jobs were not scarce of what it might feel like not to be beholden to the boss class. I would guess we have missed the chance for a sane (ish) society since WW2 by encouraging huge population expansion and failing to be sensible about religion. Capitalism is probably just b-play to this wider lunacy. What we need in systems of transaction is to understand how they self- regulate so that we can trust to do work and feel it won't be stolen in one way or another. Capitalism always preys on some labour that cannot protect itself. This shouldn't blind us to its good bits.
On 19 June, 08:40, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > hmmmm let me see... > > On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 1:26 AM, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > test > > you passed > Allan > > > > > > > On Jun 18, 3:53 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > There's a lot of the economy that seems to need to be pretty bland and > > > distributed unevenly but needed everywhere, and some that seems to be > > > a lot cleverer that is pretty secretive and only allowed to a few. We > > > seem to have little clue about how much work anyone should have to do > > > and to live in fear of both having to do it and not having any to do. > > > All remarkably unhealthy. The rest is a con of some sort. > > > > On 18 June, 19:39, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Well I am not so sure about that .. it was called to my attention of > > the > > > > Jews out in the desert and the Golden calf.. it seemed God or Moses had > > a > > > > little problem with that issue.. and it seems to me that capitalism > > leads > > > > to the dance and worship of the golden calf. > > > > Allan > > > > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 2:58 PM, pol.science kid <[email protected] > > >wrote: > > > > > > Oh yeah.. they say the capitalist way is the sure way to heaven..and > > thats > > > > > the path they preach to the comparatively new baby countries that are > > > > > undecided on their path... > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 5:36 PM, gabbydott <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > >> Founded in capitalism? Did God write up the founding theory for > > > > >> economics too? Is that what they teach you at school? > > > > > >> On 17 Jun., 02:41, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> > Hey Archy. Good seein' you around too. > > > > > >> > Capital didn't mysteriously vanish. Real capital is durable. > > Bubbles > > > > >> > create faux capital which of course disappears when the bubble > > pops > > > > >> > because it never had anything to it to begin with. No substance. > > No > > > > >> > reality. Never Never Land. A pinch of pixie dust. > > > > > >> > Nor am I saying or implying that socialism is the alternative to > > > > >> > capitalism. A healthy robust free market economic system founded > > in > > > > >> > capitalism can certainly produce sufficient profits to create not > > only > > > > >> > new capital but to also take care of the basic needs of all it's > > > > >> > citizens so they may be free to be innovative, creative or just > > plain > > > > >> > lazy if they so wish. A work ethic is not the standard by which > > > > >> > someone gets to live or die. Nor is there any rule or principle > > > > >> > which dictates that a healthy democratic society can be self- > > > > >> > sustaining for all it's citizens. A society does not need every > > > > >> > member's active participation in order to be healthy, wealthy, > > wise > > > > >> > and compassionate. Quite frequently a few can carry the load for > > a > > > > >> > large number of others. Besides, what do we do with the ones > > deemed > > > > >> > non-self-sustaining? Find a humane and compassionate way to get > > rid > > > > >> > of them? > > > > > >> > On Jun 15, 5:04 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> > > I've never been happy with the term capitalism; some bustard > > always > > > > >> > > seems to want us to forget notions of building it up and > > protecting > > > > >> > > capital in favour of magic wand tricks done by accountants - > > with the > > > > >> > > capital mysteriously vanishing from our grasp and use. Equally > > unhappy > > > > >> > > that socialism is an alternative. Freedom under democratic > > respect in > > > > >> > > societies that can sustain themselves is more where I see us > > going if > > > > >> > > we have any sense. Good to see you about Gruff. > > > > > >> > > On 15 June, 19:14, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > Vam, if you were not espousing the paranoia of world > > domination > > > > >> > > > conspiracy theories, then may I suggest that when you send > > someone > > > > >> to > > > > >> > > > a conspiracy website, that you set that parameter up front > > else a > > > > >> > > > person might get suspicious you were of the nature and > > espousing the > > > > >> > > > message of that site. > > > > > >> > > > I'm not defensive about it. I've just been on the > > merry-go-round > > > > >> with > > > > >> > > > conspiracists in the past and to be truthful I've gotten tired > > of > > > > >> > > > their irrational paranoia. There are more than sufficient > > real > > > > >> > > > problems in the world to want not to deal with unwarranted and > > > > >> > > > emotional paranoia as well. > > > > > >> > > > I also don't agree that the point of the alternate view was as > > you > > > > >> > > > describe it. I can agree with your description but that was > > not > > > > >> what > > > > >> > > > the site was about -- at least to my perception. It's a > > paranoid > > > > >> > > > conspiracy website that wants to duck and cover from those who > > > > >> > > > allegedly wish to control the world. Maybe you were able to > > pick > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > > little good out of what was said. I must have missed it. > > > > > >> > > > I also agree with your new rules for global capitalism in that > > they > > > > >> > > > will include a lot of socialist agendas -- as they should. > > I'm > > > > >> fairly > > > > >> > > > certain we will wind up with a blend of socialism and > > capitalism > > > > >> with > > > > >> > > > the latter supporting the former -- again as it should. But > > we must > > > > >> > > > be careful that the support of socialist goals does not drown > > the > > > > >> > > > capitalist free market system. > > > > > >> > > > On Jun 15, 12:18 am, vamadevananda <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > " Vam, I'm sorry but I think you're seeing conspiracies in > > the > > > > >> > > > > mirror." > > > > > >> > > > > This is one reason why we signed off last time, Gruff ! You > > > > >> really > > > > >> > > > > don't know what I'm seeing. The link I posted was just that > > : a > > > > >> link > > > > >> > > > > to some descriptions of what the capital and market > > processes > > > > >> actually > > > > >> > > > > involve. If it makes you defensive, as what you write seems > > to > > > > >> > > > > indicate, it isn't really on me ... > > > > > >> > > > > The point in the alternate view was that ... it's the same ' > > feet > > > > >> of > > > > >> > > > > clay ' story, with obvious greed and power at work. We've > > all > > > > >> lived > > > > >> > > > > with it, and know that ' small mind ' capitalism is what is > > > > >> causing > > > > >> > > > > this disruption cycle of pain and waste. We now also know > > that we > > > > >> can > > > > >> > > > > now aim to establish ' large - mind - universal - empathy ' > > > > >> > > > > capitalism, that is more sustainable, honest and > > transparent, and > > > > >> > > > > mutually respecting of life everywhere. That recognises... ' > > > > >> excesses, > > > > >> > > > > like accidents, are forever imminent but entirely > > undesirable and > > > > >> > > > > completely avoidable.' That will not only accept moderation > > as a > > > > >> great > > > > >> > > > > and critically important value, but are actually wedded to > > doing > > > > >> > > > > everything to ensure ' moral profits,' healthy competition,' > > and ' > > > > >> > > > > productive power of capital and its democratised > > availability.' > > > > >> > > > > Capital may continue to be marshalled by and placed in the > > > > >> judgement > > > > >> > > > > of individuals, but capital will henceforth be social > > assets, free > > > > >> of > > > > >> > > > > its origins in greed and its power purged of frankenstein > > aspects. > > > > > >> > > > > The new rules of global capitalism would include a lot of > > > > >> socialistic > > > > >> > > > > goals and values, Gruff ! It's an awakening that has just > > begun to > > > > >> > > > > happen.My call to all linear thinking capitalists and > > socialists, > > > > >> and > > > > >> > > > > the others, is ... step up, and embrace it. > > > > > >> > > > > On Jun 15, 1:29 am, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > Sorry Gabby. Couldn't do that trip. Along with a major > > fear of > > > > >> > > > > > heights, I can't breathe well at altitudes over 5,000 ft. > > > > >> However, I > > > > >> > > > > > have experienced a monkish environment here in the high > > deserts > > > > >> of > > > > >> > > > > > the Southwest. Very healthful, mentally and spiritually. > > > > > >> > > > > > Vam, I'm sorry but I think you're seeing conspiracies in > > the > > > > >> mirror. > > > > >> > > > > > Jekyll island is in Glynn County, Georgia and while it is > > an > > > > >> island in > > > > >> > > > > > the Atlantic Ocean it's not as isolated as the piece > > implies. > > > > >> It's > > > > >> > > > > > part of the U.S. and can be reached by rowboat, causeway > > or > > > > >> plane. It > > > > >> > > > > > has a golf club and a few resorts. And yes, Jekyll Island > > > > >> resorts > > > > >> > > > > > drew the elite for a number of centuries and it is a great > > part > > > > >> of our > > > > >> > > > > > history. It is also the place where the wealth elite > > gathered > > > > >> to plan > > > > >> > > > > > out a global economy that was not tied to gold but rather > > based > > > > >> on the > > > > >> > > > > > actual value of a nation's production and consumption. It > > was > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > > > > precursor to Bretton Woods. Now if you want to get into > > > > >> conspiracy > > > > >> > > > > > theories, Bretton Woods has spawned far more than Jekyll > > Island. > > > > >> It's > > > > >> > > > > > just that Jekyll Island has a much spookier name and thus > > gets > > > > >> more > > > > >> > > > > > press. > > > > > > -- > > > > > \--/ Peace > > > > > -- > > > > ( > > > > ) > > > > I_D Allan > > > > > Be Paranoid. > > > > God is always building a better idiot!!! > > -- > ( > ) > I_D Allan > > Be Paranoid. > God is always building a better idiot!!!
