On Nov 29, 12:02 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > even after learning the languages what you understand is still a > translation. so as I read down your statement you are telling me never to > believe what you say because it is a translation? > Allan >
Well, I kind of see your point. If I'm quoting from the Qur'an, and my quote is put forward in English, then, yes, you're forced to rely on MY translation, which could be, like any other, fraught with agenda. But, when I DO make such quotes, I do it with my best understanding of the original text and do my level best to be fair to the original. As I've had more experience with Hebrew and Greek, I tend to quote those texts more often and, of course, there are times when I put forward a quote from, say, the KJV. In the future, when I quote from someone ELSE'S translation, I will mark it as such, as what you say is perfectly fair and a good comment. If the quote is based on my own 'best translation', I should also mark it as such, to be as fair as possible. For example, when Isa. 34:14 (KJV) states: "The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest." I take exception with the term 'the screech owl' and would translate it as 'Lilith', as THAT'S the word used in the original text. And, of course, when one knows the history behind the entity known as Lilith, the whole phrase has a deeper meaning, as the legend of Lilith ends with her finding refuge in the desert. Plus, by mentioning the name itself, it lends credence to the Oral Tradition (Oral Torah) that contains the sequence of traditions regarding Lilith as being perfectly accepted in the times of Isaiah. In other words, I wouldn't 'translate' the word at all because the original text had a proper name there. The word translated as 'Satyr' is another problem, as the original is "sa'ir", which can mean 'hairy/shaggy' or 'a he-goat'. There's nothing necessarily demonic about the word OTHER than the close connection with the word Lilith in the same phrase. This has led many translators to think Faun or Satyr in this case. Whilst it's possible, I think I'd leave it as 'he-goat'. Perhaps one of these days (DON'T hold your breath!!!), I'll do my own translation of the Old and New Testaments, but it's a huge job and I have my own job that needs to be done first--putting forth my own theories. Nevertheless, I appreciate your point and will strive better to make it known when 'what I'm saying' is someone else's translation or one of my own 'best understandings'. It IS an important difference and, of course, I would ask that you accept my own as being 'best'. By no means does that automatically rule out a sub-conscious agenda; so, be wary of mine as you would care to be. But know that I will try to be fair and will have investigated all possibilities before deciding on any given translation. I really WILL do my best, as I wouldn't want to intentionally mislead anyone when it comes to scriptures that so many take so seriously...and, quite probably, should. > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Pat <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Nov 26, 6:52 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Translations are a time a dozen every one is trying to express their own > > > point of view. > > > Allan > > > Exactly, which is why, after reading 4 different translations of the > > Qur'an, I realised I needed to learn Arabic, to avoid the translator's > > mistakes and/or agendas. The very same reason I learned Hebrew nd > > Greek, to do justice to the Old and New Testaments. The translations > > are, in many cases, so skewed as to be, in some places, stating the > > exact opposite of what the original intended. NEVER count on > > translations...NEVER!! > > > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Pat <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > On Nov 26, 4:05 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Of course I am reading a translation, It is people reading thing > > into > > > > words > > > > > are not really there. When you are looking into spirituality you are > > > > looking > > > > > for clarity not confusion. It seems to me people read into what is > > > > written > > > > > just what they want to hear. My self I prefer to read what is said > > not > > > > what > > > > > people want it to say. > > > > > So far I have seen little of Isaiah but maybe I am reading the > > wrong > > > > > section. > > > > > And, of course, you need the Hebrew. I have a very good Hebrew/ > > > > English breakdown and study of Isaiah at home. It breaks it down into > > > > two volumes of around 800 pages each. Lots of commentary, which gives > > > > multiple interpretations. Funnily enough, though, as it's a Jewish > > > > study guide, does it try to match any Christian or Islamic > > > > interpretations...except for where it refutes them. Which, in my > > > > book, is another way of mentioning them just refraining from accepting > > > > them as valid. But it certainly gives a very wide view of the book. > > > > Isaiah was one of the prophets directly mentioned in the Qur'an, so I > > > > reckon there must have been a reason for giving him credence and, as > > > > Isa 29:12 matches perfectly with the beginning of the revelation of > > > > the Qur'an, it's no small wonder. The two give credence to one > > > > another. And, of course, the tone of God speaking through Isaiah > > > > matches the tone of God speaking through Gabriel to the Prophet > > > > Muhammed (pbuh) perfectly. Same patterns of speech exactly. But the > > > > two could NOT have been written by the same human author; but, there's > > > > every reason to assume the God was the same. At least that's the > > > > 'party line'. ;-) > > > > > Have a good weekend!!! > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Pat <[email protected] > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Nov 25, 6:03 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Pat I have not finished reading quran, I see to much that was > > not > > > > > > written > > > > > > > by God or Allah but the direct influence of man.. > > > > > > > But believe what you want to believe.. > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > I assume, then, that you're reading a translation. The whole > > poetic > > > > > > aspect of it along with double/triple entendres get completely > > lost. > > > > > > But, of course, that doesn't detract from my statement that the > > very > > > > > > beginning of the revelation OF the Qur'an matches that prophecy in > > > > > > Isaiah word-for-word. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Pat < > > [email protected] > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Nov 16, 9:24 pm, pathfinder <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Just like in the days of Noah, shall the days be when the Son > > of > > > > Man > > > > > > > > > is revealed. Noah's message was strange and inconceivable. > > Jesus > > > > > > spoke > > > > > > > > > of this in Luke 17:26> "And as it was in the days of No'e, so > > > > shall > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > be also in the days of the Son of man." The warning is also > > in > > > > the > > > > > > > > > numbers: 8 souls saved. > > > > > > > > > Isaiah 29:10> "For the Lord hath poured out upon you the > > spirit > > > > of > > > > > > > > > deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your > > > > rulers, > > > > > > > > > the seers hath he covered. > (11)- And the visioin of all has > > is > > > > > > > > > become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which > > men > > > > > > > > > deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray > > thee: > > > > and > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > saith, I cannot: for it is sealed:> (12)- And the book is > > > > delivered > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and > > he > > > > > > saith, > > > > > > > > > I am not learned.> > > > > > > > > > Just as an aside, this Isaiah 29:12 is exactly what happened to > > the > > > > > > > > Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). The first word that was revealed to > > him > > > > was > > > > > > > > "Read!" and his response was "I am not learned". This prophecy > > was > > > > > > > > fulfilled word for word and resulted in the Qur'an. > > > > > > > > > (13)- Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this > > > > > > > > > people draw near me with their mouth, and their lips do > > honour > > > > me, > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward > > me is > > > > > > > > > taught by the precept of men:> (14)- Therefore, behold, I > > will > > > > proced > > > > > > > > > to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous > > work > > > > and a > > > > > > > > > wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and > > the > > > > > > > > > understanding of their prudent men shall be > > > > > > > > > hid." > > > > > > > > > Now tell me, If the leaders and the prophets have been > > blinded by > > > > > > God, > > > > > > > > > how could one logically expect God to be there passing out > > sights > > > > and > > > > > > > > > visions? God speaks for himself. We just have to learn to > > listen > > > > and > > > > > > > > > apply. > > > > > > > > > On Nov 16, 8:50 am, frantheman <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Let us all be damned! If reading this kind of rubbish is > > > > > > conditional > > > > > > > > > > to being saved, then I don't want to be ... > > > > > > > > > > > Francis > > > > > > > > > > > On 16 Nov., 17:37, "[email protected]" < > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Spam spam I call spam! > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 16, 4:23 pm, edward mason < > > [email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > From: <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 2:12 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Testimony of Jesus Christ[2]--word > > document.doc > > > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've shared Testimony of Jesus Christ[2]--word > > > > > > > > > > > > document.doc< > > > > >https://docs.google.com/document/d/1epTOPsmbeL_wmUUDCeJdwQaM4totpYZjG.. > > > > > > .> > > > > > > > > > > > > Click to open: > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Testimony of Jesus Christ[2]--word > > > > > > > > > > > > document.doc< > > > > >https://docs.google.com/document/d/1epTOPsmbeL_wmUUDCeJdwQaM4totpYZjG.. > > > > > > .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > LAST DAY PROPHECIES THAT FIT THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE > > > > PRESENT > > > > > > DAY > > > > > > > > > > > > > “THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS THE SWORD” > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revelation 12:17 “And the dragon was wroth with the > > > > woman, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > went to > > > > > > > > > > > > make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the > > > > > > commandments > > > > > > > > of God, > > > > > > > > > > > > and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revelation 19:10 “And I fell at his feet to worship > > him. > > > > And he > > > > > > > > said unto > > > > > > > > > > > > me,’ see thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and > > of > > > > thy > > > > > > > > brothren > > > > > > > > > > > > that have > > > > > > > > > > > > the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony > > of > > > > Jesus > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > spirit of Prophecy.” > > > > > > > > > > > > > So then, it should be noteworthy that there are > > > > differences > > > > > > > > between the > > > > > > > > > > > > ‘Testimony of Jesus the Christ’, and the testimony of > > > > another > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > ‘Jesus is > > > > > > > > > > > > the Christ’. For there are words in some of Jesus’ > > sayings > > > > that > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > > > indicate that there will be those in the last days, > > though > > > > > > being > > > > > > > > able to > > > > > > > > > > > > testify that Jesus is the Christ, will be shut out of > > the > > > > > > kingdom > > > > > > > > of Heaven. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luke 13:26 “Then shall ye begin to say, ‘We have eaten > > and > > > > > > drunk in > > > > > > > > thy > > > > > > > > > > > > presence, and thou hast taught in our streets’.” > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luke 13:27 “ But he shall say, ’I tell you, I know not > > > > whence > > > > > > ye > > > > > > > > are; depart > > > > > > > > > > > > from me, all ye workers of iniquity’. “ > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luke 6:46 “ And why call ye me, Lord, and do not the > > > > things > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > I say?” > > > > > > > > > > > > > A testimony is the witnessing one gives from his > > > > collection > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > evidence > > > > > > > > > > > > and experiences. What man testify to is one thing: that > > > > Jesus > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > the Supreme > > > > > > > > > > > > Sacrifice, the Savior, the Prince of Peace, and the > > > > Repairer of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Breach, > > > > > > > > > > > > is one thing; But what Jesus testify to leads to the > > > > Salvation > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the Soul, > > > > > > > > > > > > the Way to God, Eternal Light and Life. As unfortunate > > as > > > > it > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > appear at > > > > > > > > > > > > first, upon hearing Jesus’ testimony for the very first > > > > time, > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > > > > > wise to bear in mind that the whole is God’s plan for > > > > > > Salvation. We > > > > > > > > have all > > > > > > > > > > > > transgressed the Laws of God, and the wages of sin is > > > > death. > > > > > > > > Wherefore, to > > > > > > > > > > > > be placed under a period of judgment, with an > > opportunity > > > > to > > > > > > > > repent, have a > > > > > > > > > > > > change of heart, and then be removed from judgment to > > > > Eternal > > > > > > Life, > > > > > > > > is truly > > > > > > > > > > > > the Mercy and Righteousness of God. While to remain > > > > ignorant in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > face of > > > > > > > > > > > > Truth and Word of God makes us guilty in the Blood- > > shed of > > > > all > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Holy > > > > > > > > > > > > People. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But then, that’s my testimony. And who am I, but a > > > > sinner, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > another who > > > > > > > > > > > > have fallen short of the Glory of God? Yet in my > > search, I > > > > > > knocked, > > > > > > > > and some > > > > > > > > > > > > doors opened up. Now I have the duty to testify; to try > > to > > > > show > > > > > > > > some things > > > > > > > > > > > > that I’ve seen behind some of those doors: to describe > > the > > > > > > Light I > > > > > > > > saw at > > > > > > > > > > > > the end of that long, narrow tunnel. I must share what > > I > > > > hear > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > understandings of my heart. I bring > > > > ... > > > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > -- > ( > ) > I_D Allan > > If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken > Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
