On Nov 29, 3:22 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > Pat what it comes down to is I take all translations with a grain of salt > -- that is why there are huge oceans full of it.. > > Translation are a very difficult proposition at best and Pat medically I do > not have the ability to learn and use any language.. I can use english > because it is my birth language, Have fun translating. > Allan >
Years ago, I'd started a new translation of the New Testament with a friend/colleague, but, sadly, that individual is no longer living. We'd finished the Gospels and were just into Acts when personal situations arose and work stopped. 4 years later, collaboration became impossible. Having made the attempt, once, as a part of a collaborative effort, I think that would be the best way forward, as two heads are better than one and, in tricky cases, you can actually reason out something that neither individual would have come out with themselves. But i've found it hard to find people willing and able to DO that kind of collaborative work. And you need to be both willing AND able. > > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Nov 29, 12:02 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > even after learning the languages what you understand is still a > > > translation. so as I read down your statement you are telling me never to > > > believe what you say because it is a translation? > > > Allan > > > Well, I kind of see your point. If I'm quoting from the Qur'an, and > > my quote is put forward in English, then, yes, you're forced to rely > > on MY translation, which could be, like any other, fraught with > > agenda. But, when I DO make such quotes, I do it with my best > > understanding of the original text and do my level best to be fair to > > the original. As I've had more experience with Hebrew and Greek, I > > tend to quote those texts more often and, of course, there are times > > when I put forward a quote from, say, the KJV. In the future, when I > > quote from someone ELSE'S translation, I will mark it as such, as what > > you say is perfectly fair and a good comment. If the quote is based > > on my own 'best translation', I should also mark it as such, to be as > > fair as possible. > > > For example, when Isa. 34:14 (KJV) states: "The wild beasts of the > > desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the > > satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, > > and find for herself a place of rest." > > > I take exception with the term 'the screech owl' and would translate > > it as 'Lilith', as THAT'S the word used in the original text. And, of > > course, when one knows the history behind the entity known as Lilith, > > the whole phrase has a deeper meaning, as the legend of Lilith ends > > with her finding refuge in the desert. Plus, by mentioning the name > > itself, it lends credence to the Oral Tradition (Oral Torah) that > > contains the sequence of traditions regarding Lilith as being > > perfectly accepted in the times of Isaiah. In other words, I wouldn't > > 'translate' the word at all because the original text had a proper > > name there. > > The word translated as 'Satyr' is another problem, as the original is > > "sa'ir", which can mean 'hairy/shaggy' or 'a he-goat'. There's > > nothing necessarily demonic about the word OTHER than the close > > connection with the word Lilith in the same phrase. This has led many > > translators to think Faun or Satyr in this case. Whilst it's > > possible, I think I'd leave it as 'he-goat'. > > Perhaps one of these days (DON'T hold your breath!!!), I'll do my own > > translation of the Old and New Testaments, but it's a huge job and I > > have my own job that needs to be done first--putting forth my own > > theories. > > > Nevertheless, I appreciate your point and will strive better to make > > it known when 'what I'm saying' is someone else's translation or one > > of my own 'best understandings'. It IS an important difference and, > > of course, I would ask that you accept my own as being 'best'. By no > > means does that automatically rule out a sub-conscious agenda; so, be > > wary of mine as you would care to be. But know that I will try to be > > fair and will have investigated all possibilities before deciding on > > any given translation. I really WILL do my best, as I wouldn't want > > to intentionally mislead anyone when it comes to scriptures that so > > many take so seriously...and, quite probably, should. > > > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Pat <[email protected] > > >wrote: > > > > > On Nov 26, 6:52 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Translations are a time a dozen every one is trying to express their > > own > > > > > point of view. > > > > > Allan > > > > > Exactly, which is why, after reading 4 different translations of the > > > > Qur'an, I realised I needed to learn Arabic, to avoid the translator's > > > > mistakes and/or agendas. The very same reason I learned Hebrew nd > > > > Greek, to do justice to the Old and New Testaments. The translations > > > > are, in many cases, so skewed as to be, in some places, stating the > > > > exact opposite of what the original intended. NEVER count on > > > > translations...NEVER!! > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Pat <[email protected] > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Nov 26, 4:05 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Of course I am reading a translation, It is people reading thing > > > > into > > > > > > words > > > > > > > are not really there. When you are looking into spirituality you > > are > > > > > > looking > > > > > > > for clarity not confusion. It seems to me people read into what > > is > > > > > > written > > > > > > > just what they want to hear. My self I prefer to read what is > > said > > > > not > > > > > > what > > > > > > > people want it to say. > > > > > > > So far I have seen little of Isaiah but maybe I am reading the > > > > wrong > > > > > > > section. > > > > > > > And, of course, you need the Hebrew. I have a very good Hebrew/ > > > > > > English breakdown and study of Isaiah at home. It breaks it down > > into > > > > > > two volumes of around 800 pages each. Lots of commentary, which > > gives > > > > > > multiple interpretations. Funnily enough, though, as it's a Jewish > > > > > > study guide, does it try to match any Christian or Islamic > > > > > > interpretations...except for where it refutes them. Which, in my > > > > > > book, is another way of mentioning them just refraining from > > accepting > > > > > > them as valid. But it certainly gives a very wide view of the > > book. > > > > > > Isaiah was one of the prophets directly mentioned in the Qur'an, so > > I > > > > > > reckon there must have been a reason for giving him credence and, > > as > > > > > > Isa 29:12 matches perfectly with the beginning of the revelation of > > > > > > the Qur'an, it's no small wonder. The two give credence to one > > > > > > another. And, of course, the tone of God speaking through Isaiah > > > > > > matches the tone of God speaking through Gabriel to the Prophet > > > > > > Muhammed (pbuh) perfectly. Same patterns of speech exactly. But > > the > > > > > > two could NOT have been written by the same human author; but, > > there's > > > > > > every reason to assume the God was the same. At least that's the > > > > > > 'party line'. ;-) > > > > > > > Have a good weekend!!! > > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Pat < > > [email protected] > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Nov 25, 6:03 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Pat I have not finished reading quran, I see to much that > > was > > > > not > > > > > > > > written > > > > > > > > > by God or Allah but the direct influence of man.. > > > > > > > > > But believe what you want to believe.. > > > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > > > I assume, then, that you're reading a translation. The whole > > > > poetic > > > > > > > > aspect of it along with double/triple entendres get completely > > > > lost. > > > > > > > > But, of course, that doesn't detract from my statement that the > > > > very > > > > > > > > beginning of the revelation OF the Qur'an matches that prophecy > > in > > > > > > > > Isaiah word-for-word. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Pat < > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 16, 9:24 pm, pathfinder <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Just like in the days of Noah, shall the days be when the > > Son > > > > of > > > > > > Man > > > > > > > > > > > is revealed. Noah's message was strange and > > inconceivable. > > > > Jesus > > > > > > > > spoke > > > > > > > > > > > of this in Luke 17:26> "And as it was in the days of > > No'e, so > > > > > > shall > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > be also in the days of the Son of man." The warning is > > also > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > numbers: 8 souls saved. > > > > > > > > > > > Isaiah 29:10> "For the Lord hath poured out upon you the > > > > spirit > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and > > your > > > > > > rulers, > > > > > > > > > > > the seers hath he covered. > (11)- And the visioin of all > > has > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, > > which > > > > men > > > > > > > > > > > deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray > > > > thee: > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > > > saith, I cannot: for it is sealed:> (12)- And the book is > > > > > > delivered > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: > > and > > > > he > > > > > > > > saith, > > > > > > > > > > > I am not learned.> > > > > > > > > > > > Just as an aside, this Isaiah 29:12 is exactly what > > happened to > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). The first word that was revealed > > to > > > > him > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > "Read!" and his response was "I am not learned". This > > prophecy > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > fulfilled word for word and resulted in the Qur'an. > > > > > > > > > > > (13)- Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this > > > > > > > > > > > people draw near me with their mouth, and their lips do > > > > honour > > > > > > me, > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > have removed their heart far from me, and their fear > > toward > > > > me is > > > > > > > > > > > taught by the precept of men:> (14)- Therefore, behold, I > > > > will > > > > > > proced > > > > > > > > > > > to do a marvelous work among this people, even a > > marvelous > > > > work > > > > > > and a > > > > > > > > > > > wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, > > and > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > understanding of their prudent men shall be > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
