Pat what it comes down to is I take all translations with a grain of salt -- that is why there are huge oceans full of it..
Translation are a very difficult proposition at best and Pat medically I do not have the ability to learn and use any language.. I can use english because it is my birth language, Have fun translating. Allan On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Nov 29, 12:02 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > even after learning the languages what you understand is still a > > translation. so as I read down your statement you are telling me never to > > believe what you say because it is a translation? > > Allan > > > > Well, I kind of see your point. If I'm quoting from the Qur'an, and > my quote is put forward in English, then, yes, you're forced to rely > on MY translation, which could be, like any other, fraught with > agenda. But, when I DO make such quotes, I do it with my best > understanding of the original text and do my level best to be fair to > the original. As I've had more experience with Hebrew and Greek, I > tend to quote those texts more often and, of course, there are times > when I put forward a quote from, say, the KJV. In the future, when I > quote from someone ELSE'S translation, I will mark it as such, as what > you say is perfectly fair and a good comment. If the quote is based > on my own 'best translation', I should also mark it as such, to be as > fair as possible. > > For example, when Isa. 34:14 (KJV) states: "The wild beasts of the > desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the > satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, > and find for herself a place of rest." > > I take exception with the term 'the screech owl' and would translate > it as 'Lilith', as THAT'S the word used in the original text. And, of > course, when one knows the history behind the entity known as Lilith, > the whole phrase has a deeper meaning, as the legend of Lilith ends > with her finding refuge in the desert. Plus, by mentioning the name > itself, it lends credence to the Oral Tradition (Oral Torah) that > contains the sequence of traditions regarding Lilith as being > perfectly accepted in the times of Isaiah. In other words, I wouldn't > 'translate' the word at all because the original text had a proper > name there. > The word translated as 'Satyr' is another problem, as the original is > "sa'ir", which can mean 'hairy/shaggy' or 'a he-goat'. There's > nothing necessarily demonic about the word OTHER than the close > connection with the word Lilith in the same phrase. This has led many > translators to think Faun or Satyr in this case. Whilst it's > possible, I think I'd leave it as 'he-goat'. > Perhaps one of these days (DON'T hold your breath!!!), I'll do my own > translation of the Old and New Testaments, but it's a huge job and I > have my own job that needs to be done first--putting forth my own > theories. > > Nevertheless, I appreciate your point and will strive better to make > it known when 'what I'm saying' is someone else's translation or one > of my own 'best understandings'. It IS an important difference and, > of course, I would ask that you accept my own as being 'best'. By no > means does that automatically rule out a sub-conscious agenda; so, be > wary of mine as you would care to be. But know that I will try to be > fair and will have investigated all possibilities before deciding on > any given translation. I really WILL do my best, as I wouldn't want > to intentionally mislead anyone when it comes to scriptures that so > many take so seriously...and, quite probably, should. > > > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Pat <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 26, 6:52 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Translations are a time a dozen every one is trying to express their > own > > > > point of view. > > > > Allan > > > > > Exactly, which is why, after reading 4 different translations of the > > > Qur'an, I realised I needed to learn Arabic, to avoid the translator's > > > mistakes and/or agendas. The very same reason I learned Hebrew nd > > > Greek, to do justice to the Old and New Testaments. The translations > > > are, in many cases, so skewed as to be, in some places, stating the > > > exact opposite of what the original intended. NEVER count on > > > translations...NEVER!! > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Pat <[email protected] > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Nov 26, 4:05 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Of course I am reading a translation, It is people reading thing > > > into > > > > > words > > > > > > are not really there. When you are looking into spirituality you > are > > > > > looking > > > > > > for clarity not confusion. It seems to me people read into what > is > > > > > written > > > > > > just what they want to hear. My self I prefer to read what is > said > > > not > > > > > what > > > > > > people want it to say. > > > > > > So far I have seen little of Isaiah but maybe I am reading the > > > wrong > > > > > > section. > > > > > > > And, of course, you need the Hebrew. I have a very good Hebrew/ > > > > > English breakdown and study of Isaiah at home. It breaks it down > into > > > > > two volumes of around 800 pages each. Lots of commentary, which > gives > > > > > multiple interpretations. Funnily enough, though, as it's a Jewish > > > > > study guide, does it try to match any Christian or Islamic > > > > > interpretations...except for where it refutes them. Which, in my > > > > > book, is another way of mentioning them just refraining from > accepting > > > > > them as valid. But it certainly gives a very wide view of the > book. > > > > > Isaiah was one of the prophets directly mentioned in the Qur'an, so > I > > > > > reckon there must have been a reason for giving him credence and, > as > > > > > Isa 29:12 matches perfectly with the beginning of the revelation of > > > > > the Qur'an, it's no small wonder. The two give credence to one > > > > > another. And, of course, the tone of God speaking through Isaiah > > > > > matches the tone of God speaking through Gabriel to the Prophet > > > > > Muhammed (pbuh) perfectly. Same patterns of speech exactly. But > the > > > > > two could NOT have been written by the same human author; but, > there's > > > > > every reason to assume the God was the same. At least that's the > > > > > 'party line'. ;-) > > > > > > > Have a good weekend!!! > > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Pat < > [email protected] > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Nov 25, 6:03 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Pat I have not finished reading quran, I see to much that > was > > > not > > > > > > > written > > > > > > > > by God or Allah but the direct influence of man.. > > > > > > > > But believe what you want to believe.. > > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > > > I assume, then, that you're reading a translation. The whole > > > poetic > > > > > > > aspect of it along with double/triple entendres get completely > > > lost. > > > > > > > But, of course, that doesn't detract from my statement that the > > > very > > > > > > > beginning of the revelation OF the Qur'an matches that prophecy > in > > > > > > > Isaiah word-for-word. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Pat < > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 16, 9:24 pm, pathfinder <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Just like in the days of Noah, shall the days be when the > Son > > > of > > > > > Man > > > > > > > > > > is revealed. Noah's message was strange and > inconceivable. > > > Jesus > > > > > > > spoke > > > > > > > > > > of this in Luke 17:26> "And as it was in the days of > No'e, so > > > > > shall > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > be also in the days of the Son of man." The warning is > also > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > numbers: 8 souls saved. > > > > > > > > > > Isaiah 29:10> "For the Lord hath poured out upon you the > > > spirit > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and > your > > > > > rulers, > > > > > > > > > > the seers hath he covered. > (11)- And the visioin of all > has > > > is > > > > > > > > > > become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, > which > > > men > > > > > > > > > > deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray > > > thee: > > > > > and > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > > saith, I cannot: for it is sealed:> (12)- And the book is > > > > > delivered > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: > and > > > he > > > > > > > saith, > > > > > > > > > > I am not learned.> > > > > > > > > > > > Just as an aside, this Isaiah 29:12 is exactly what > happened to > > > the > > > > > > > > > Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). The first word that was revealed > to > > > him > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > "Read!" and his response was "I am not learned". This > prophecy > > > was > > > > > > > > > fulfilled word for word and resulted in the Qur'an. > > > > > > > > > > > (13)- Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this > > > > > > > > > > people draw near me with their mouth, and their lips do > > > honour > > > > > me, > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > have removed their heart far from me, and their fear > toward > > > me is > > > > > > > > > > taught by the precept of men:> (14)- Therefore, behold, I > > > will > > > > > proced > > > > > > > > > > to do a marvelous work among this people, even a > marvelous > > > work > > > > > and a > > > > > > > > > > wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, > and > > > the > > > > > > > > > > understanding of their prudent men shall be > > > > > > > > > > hid." > > > > > > > > > > Now tell me, If the leaders and the prophets have been > > > blinded by > > > > > > > God, > > > > > > > > > > how could one logically expect God to be there passing > out > > > sights > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > visions? God speaks for himself. We just have to learn to > > > listen > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > apply. > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 16, 8:50 am, frantheman < > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us all be damned! If reading this kind of rubbish > is > > > > > > > conditional > > > > > > > > > > > to being saved, then I don't want to be ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > Francis > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16 Nov., 17:37, "[email protected]" < > > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spam spam I call spam! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 16, 4:23 pm, edward mason < > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 2:12 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Testimony of Jesus Christ[2]--word > > > document.doc > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've shared Testimony of Jesus Christ[2]--word > > > > > > > > > > > > > document.doc< > > > > > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1epTOPsmbeL_wmUUDCeJdwQaM4totpYZjG.. > > > > > > > .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Click to open: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Testimony of Jesus Christ[2]--word > > > > > > > > > > > > > document.doc< > > > > > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1epTOPsmbeL_wmUUDCeJdwQaM4totpYZjG.. > > > > > > > .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LAST DAY PROPHECIES THAT FIT THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF > THE > > > > > PRESENT > > > > > > > DAY > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS THE SWORD” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revelation 12:17 “And the dragon was wroth with > the > > > > > woman, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > went to > > > > > > > > > > > > > make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep > the > > > > > > > commandments > > > > > > > > > of God, > > > > > > > > > > > > > and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revelation 19:10 “And I fell at his feet to worship > > > him. > > > > > And he > > > > > > > > > said unto > > > > > > > > > > > > > me,’ see thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, > and > > > of > > > > > thy > > > > > > > > > brothren > > > > > > > > > > > > > that have > > > > > > > > > > > > > the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the > testimony > > > of > > > > > Jesus > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > spirit of Prophecy.” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So then, it should be noteworthy that there are > > > > > differences > > > > > > > > > between the > > > > > > > > > > > > > ‘Testimony of Jesus the Christ’, and the testimony > of > > > > > another > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > ‘Jesus is > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Christ’. For there are words in some of Jesus’ > > > sayings > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > > > > indicate that there will be those in the last days, > > > though > > > > > > > being > > > > > > > > > able to > > > > > > > > > > > > > testify that Jesus is the Christ, will be shut out > of > > > the > > > > > > > kingdom > > > > > > > > > of Heaven. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luke 13:26 “Then shall ye begin to say, ‘We have > eaten > > > and > > > > > > > drunk in > > > > > > > > > thy > > > > > > > > > > > > > presence, and thou hast taught in our streets’.” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luke 13:27 “ But he shall say, ’I tell you, I know > not > > > > > whence > > > > > > > ye > > > > > > > > > are; depart > > > > > > > > > > > > > from me, all ye workers of iniquity’. “ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luke 6:46 “ And why call ye me, Lord, and do not > the > > > > > things > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > I say?” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A testimony is the witnessing one gives from his > > > > > collection > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > evidence > > > > > > > > > > > > > and experiences. What man testify to is one thing: > that > > > > > Jesus > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > the Supreme > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sacrifice, the Savior, the Prince of Peace, and the > > > > > Repairer of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > Breach, > > > > > > > > > > > > > is one thing; But what Jesus testify to leads to > the > > > > > Salvation > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > the Soul, > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Way to God, Eternal Light and Life. As > unfortunate > > > as > > > > > it > > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > > appear at > > > > > > > > > > > > > first, upon hearing Jesus’ testimony for the very > first > > > > > time, > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > > > > > > wise to bear in mind that the whole is God’s plan > for > > > > > > > Salvation. We > > > > > > > > > have all > > > > > > > > > > > > > transgressed the Laws of God, and the wages of sin > is > > > > > death. > > > > > > > > > Wherefore, to > > > > > > > > > > > > > be placed under a period of judgment, with an > > > opportunity > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > repent, have a > > > > > > > > > > > > > change of heart, and then be removed from judgment > to > > > > > Eternal > > > > > > > Life, > > > > > > > > > is truly > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Mercy and Righteousness of God. While to remain > > > > > ignorant in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > face of > > > > > > > > > > > > > Truth and Word of God makes us guilty in the Blood- > > > shed of > > > > > all > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > Holy > > > > > > > > > > > > > People. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But then, that’s my testimony. And who am I, but > a > > > > > sinner, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > another who > > > > > > > > > > > > > have fallen short of the Glory of God? Yet in my > > > search, I > > > > > > > knocked, > > > > > > > > > and some > > > > > > > > > > > > > doors opened up. Now I have the duty to testify; to > try > > > to > > > > > show > > > > > > > > > some things > > > > > > > > > > > > > that I’ve seen behind some of those doors: to > describe > > > the > > > > > > > Light I > > > > > > > > > saw at > > > > > > > > > > > > > the end of that long, narrow tunnel. I must share > what > > > I > > > > > hear > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > understandings of my heart. I bring > > > > > > ... > > > > > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > -- > > ( > > ) > > I_D Allan > > > > If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken > > Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - -- ( ) I_D Allan If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
