Pat personally I would be very interested in reading your translation of the gospels..would you consider sending me a digital copy? Allan
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Nov 29, 3:22 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > Pat what it comes down to is I take all translations with a grain of salt > > -- that is why there are huge oceans full of it.. > > > > Translation are a very difficult proposition at best and Pat medically I > do > > not have the ability to learn and use any language.. I can use english > > because it is my birth language, Have fun translating. > > Allan > > > > Years ago, I'd started a new translation of the New Testament with a > friend/colleague, but, sadly, that individual is no longer living. > We'd finished the Gospels and were just into Acts when personal > situations arose and work stopped. 4 years later, collaboration > became impossible. > Having made the attempt, once, as a part of a collaborative effort, I > think that would be the best way forward, as two heads are better than > one and, in tricky cases, you can actually reason out something that > neither individual would have come out with themselves. But i've > found it hard to find people willing and able to DO that kind of > collaborative work. And you need to be both willing AND able. > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Pat <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > On Nov 29, 12:02 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > even after learning the languages what you understand is still a > > > > translation. so as I read down your statement you are telling me > never to > > > > believe what you say because it is a translation? > > > > Allan > > > > > Well, I kind of see your point. If I'm quoting from the Qur'an, and > > > my quote is put forward in English, then, yes, you're forced to rely > > > on MY translation, which could be, like any other, fraught with > > > agenda. But, when I DO make such quotes, I do it with my best > > > understanding of the original text and do my level best to be fair to > > > the original. As I've had more experience with Hebrew and Greek, I > > > tend to quote those texts more often and, of course, there are times > > > when I put forward a quote from, say, the KJV. In the future, when I > > > quote from someone ELSE'S translation, I will mark it as such, as what > > > you say is perfectly fair and a good comment. If the quote is based > > > on my own 'best translation', I should also mark it as such, to be as > > > fair as possible. > > > > > For example, when Isa. 34:14 (KJV) states: "The wild beasts of the > > > desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the > > > satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, > > > and find for herself a place of rest." > > > > > I take exception with the term 'the screech owl' and would translate > > > it as 'Lilith', as THAT'S the word used in the original text. And, of > > > course, when one knows the history behind the entity known as Lilith, > > > the whole phrase has a deeper meaning, as the legend of Lilith ends > > > with her finding refuge in the desert. Plus, by mentioning the name > > > itself, it lends credence to the Oral Tradition (Oral Torah) that > > > contains the sequence of traditions regarding Lilith as being > > > perfectly accepted in the times of Isaiah. In other words, I wouldn't > > > 'translate' the word at all because the original text had a proper > > > name there. > > > The word translated as 'Satyr' is another problem, as the original is > > > "sa'ir", which can mean 'hairy/shaggy' or 'a he-goat'. There's > > > nothing necessarily demonic about the word OTHER than the close > > > connection with the word Lilith in the same phrase. This has led many > > > translators to think Faun or Satyr in this case. Whilst it's > > > possible, I think I'd leave it as 'he-goat'. > > > Perhaps one of these days (DON'T hold your breath!!!), I'll do my own > > > translation of the Old and New Testaments, but it's a huge job and I > > > have my own job that needs to be done first--putting forth my own > > > theories. > > > > > Nevertheless, I appreciate your point and will strive better to make > > > it known when 'what I'm saying' is someone else's translation or one > > > of my own 'best understandings'. It IS an important difference and, > > > of course, I would ask that you accept my own as being 'best'. By no > > > means does that automatically rule out a sub-conscious agenda; so, be > > > wary of mine as you would care to be. But know that I will try to be > > > fair and will have investigated all possibilities before deciding on > > > any given translation. I really WILL do my best, as I wouldn't want > > > to intentionally mislead anyone when it comes to scriptures that so > > > many take so seriously...and, quite probably, should. > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Pat < > [email protected] > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > On Nov 26, 6:52 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Translations are a time a dozen every one is trying to express > their > > > own > > > > > > point of view. > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > Exactly, which is why, after reading 4 different translations of > the > > > > > Qur'an, I realised I needed to learn Arabic, to avoid the > translator's > > > > > mistakes and/or agendas. The very same reason I learned Hebrew nd > > > > > Greek, to do justice to the Old and New Testaments. The > translations > > > > > are, in many cases, so skewed as to be, in some places, stating the > > > > > exact opposite of what the original intended. NEVER count on > > > > > translations...NEVER!! > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Pat < > [email protected] > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Nov 26, 4:05 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Of course I am reading a translation, It is people reading > thing > > > > > into > > > > > > > words > > > > > > > > are not really there. When you are looking into spirituality > you > > > are > > > > > > > looking > > > > > > > > for clarity not confusion. It seems to me people read into > what > > > is > > > > > > > written > > > > > > > > just what they want to hear. My self I prefer to read what is > > > said > > > > > not > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > people want it to say. > > > > > > > > So far I have seen little of Isaiah but maybe I am reading > the > > > > > wrong > > > > > > > > section. > > > > > > > > > And, of course, you need the Hebrew. I have a very good > Hebrew/ > > > > > > > English breakdown and study of Isaiah at home. It breaks it > down > > > into > > > > > > > two volumes of around 800 pages each. Lots of commentary, > which > > > gives > > > > > > > multiple interpretations. Funnily enough, though, as it's a > Jewish > > > > > > > study guide, does it try to match any Christian or Islamic > > > > > > > interpretations...except for where it refutes them. Which, in > my > > > > > > > book, is another way of mentioning them just refraining from > > > accepting > > > > > > > them as valid. But it certainly gives a very wide view of the > > > book. > > > > > > > Isaiah was one of the prophets directly mentioned in the > Qur'an, so > > > I > > > > > > > reckon there must have been a reason for giving him credence > and, > > > as > > > > > > > Isa 29:12 matches perfectly with the beginning of the > revelation of > > > > > > > the Qur'an, it's no small wonder. The two give credence to one > > > > > > > another. And, of course, the tone of God speaking through > Isaiah > > > > > > > matches the tone of God speaking through Gabriel to the Prophet > > > > > > > Muhammed (pbuh) perfectly. Same patterns of speech exactly. > But > > > the > > > > > > > two could NOT have been written by the same human author; but, > > > there's > > > > > > > every reason to assume the God was the same. At least that's > the > > > > > > > 'party line'. ;-) > > > > > > > > > Have a good weekend!!! > > > > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Pat < > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 25, 6:03 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Pat I have not finished reading quran, I see to much > that > > > was > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > written > > > > > > > > > > by God or Allah but the direct influence of man.. > > > > > > > > > > But believe what you want to believe.. > > > > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > > > > > I assume, then, that you're reading a translation. The > whole > > > > > poetic > > > > > > > > > aspect of it along with double/triple entendres get > completely > > > > > lost. > > > > > > > > > But, of course, that doesn't detract from my statement that > the > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > beginning of the revelation OF the Qur'an matches that > prophecy > > > in > > > > > > > > > Isaiah word-for-word. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Pat < > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 16, 9:24 pm, pathfinder < > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like in the days of Noah, shall the days be when > the > > > Son > > > > > of > > > > > > > Man > > > > > > > > > > > > is revealed. Noah's message was strange and > > > inconceivable. > > > > > Jesus > > > > > > > > > spoke > > > > > > > > > > > > of this in Luke 17:26> "And as it was in the days of > > > No'e, so > > > > > > > shall > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > be also in the days of the Son of man." The warning > is > > > also > > > > > in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > numbers: 8 souls saved. > > > > > > > > > > > > Isaiah 29:10> "For the Lord hath poured out upon you > the > > > > > spirit > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets > and > > > your > > > > > > > rulers, > > > > > > > > > > > > the seers hath he covered. > (11)- And the visioin of > all > > > has > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > become unto you as the words of a book that is > sealed, > > > which > > > > > men > > > > > > > > > > > > deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I > pray > > > > > thee: > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > > > > saith, I cannot: for it is sealed:> (12)- And the > book is > > > > > > > delivered > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray > thee: > > > and > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > saith, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not learned.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just as an aside, this Isaiah 29:12 is exactly what > > > happened to > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). The first word that was > revealed > > > to > > > > > him > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > "Read!" and his response was "I am not learned". This > > > prophecy > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > fulfilled word for word and resulted in the Qur'an. > > > > > > > > > > > > > (13)- Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this > > > > > > > > > > > > people draw near me with their mouth, and their lips > do > > > > > honour > > > > > > > me, > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > > have removed their heart far from me, and their fear > > > toward > > > > > me is > > > > > > > > > > > > taught by the precept of men:> (14)- Therefore, > behold, I > > > > > will > > > > > > > proced > > > > > > > > > > > > to do a marvelous work among this people, even a > > > marvelous > > > > > work > > > > > > > and a > > > > > > > > > > > > wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall > perish, > > > and > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > understanding of their prudent men shall be > > > > ... > > > > read more ยป- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > -- ( ) I_D Allan If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
