ask and ye shall receive.  nicely done!

On Saturday, October 13, 2012 8:50:40 AM UTC-4, rigsy03 wrote:
>
> Not sure if religion, cults, tribal mischief did not have the same 
> effect Vam. Consider the countless wars, for instance. But I think 
> western man has turn the Age of Machines into a new religion and one 
> could draw many parallels- and has, via artists and authors. Anyway, 
> after spending way too much time finding a new niche for my morning 
> coffee maker before my daughter and two grand-daughters come for the 
> Xmas holidays (!), I have certainly racked up the equivalent of a 
> novena! BTW, a couple of years ago I noticed my feet were slightly 
> stiff in the morning and I worried that my flight to the kitchen for a 
> mug of coffee could be perilous so I bought one of those small coffee 
> makers for the upstairs and now include a muffin- just to rev up the 
> joints before I seize the day. :-) Anyway, this might be a good idea 
> for any who need to warm/rev up. (This is my machine confession.) On 
> the other hand, I have been negotiating with the Divine for a new lawn/ 
> snow guy and I am on the brink of success! lol 
>
> On Oct 11, 6:28 am, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: 
> > Bingo ! * sounding the drums * 
> > 
> > But what gives it the merit also renders science blind to much that is 
> > essential to our humanity, which are abstract and non-material ... 
> beauty, 
> > ethics, morals, truth, compassion, happiness, love, etc. 
> > 
> > Albert Einstein expressed is eloquently ... as have several others. 
> > 
> > There has been much since science overwhelmed us. But everytime it has 
> > served to delete a part or measure of our humanity, mankind has struck a 
> > blow at its own foot ! 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 5:46:04 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote: 
> > 
> > > I wasn't clear. I was thinking about new ideas and inventions which 
> > > made older ideas and inventions obsolete or mere stepping stones to a 
> > > greater truth. Science seems more open to changes and advances for the 
> > > most part though Darwin had a struggle but that was because he stepped 
> > > into religious territory which might mean that we are more open to 
> > > change when it does not involve emotions and beliefs versus 
> > > demonstrable facts. 
> > 
> > > On Oct 9, 9:08 am, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: 
> > > > It will still be more clever than the rest ! 
> > 
> > > > On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 5:04:27 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote: 
> > 
> > > > > Until the next cleverest man/woman comes along! :-) 
> > 
> > > > > On Oct 8, 5:56 pm, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: 
> > > > > > " Machines are only as clever as they have been programmed to 
> > > > > > be. In some cases that may mean smarter than some humans for 
> > > specific 
> > > > > > acts or purposes ... " 
> > 
> > > > > > If a machine is programmed by the cleverest man, 
> > 
> > > > > > it would not be ' only ' as clever as it has been programmed 
> > 
> > > > > > but it would be more clever than every other man on the planet ! 
> > 
> > > > > > On Monday, October 8, 2012 5:01:02 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote: 
> > 
> > > > > > > And certain ants have also figured out how to enter the honey 
> bee 
> > > as a 
> > > > > > > parasite which has an ominous impact on pollination. Species 
> pick 
> > > up 
> > > > > > > their behaviors from their groups- some are more dedicated- 
> > > patterns 
> > > > > > > can be disrupted.// Anyway, aren't you equating worth with 
> money/ 
> > > > > > > salary?//Machines are only as clever as they have been 
> programmed 
> > > to 
> > > > > > > be. In some cases that may mean smarter than some humans for 
> > > specific 
> > > > > > > acts or purposes but still short of general intelligence, 
> insight 
> > > and 
> > > > > > > adaptation.// Old age is not necessarily "lousey" except the 
> final 
> > > > > > > chapter is death and certain goals were not realized or 
> possible. 
> > > Hard 
> > > > > > > work/age does not create arthritis- that is a myth. The 12 
> year 
> > > old 
> > > > > > > across the street has arthritis and started some exercise for 
> > > > > > > violinists. 
> > 
> > > > > > > On Oct 7, 9:51 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: 
> > > > > > > > The archaeological evidence is that such things as the move 
> to 
> > > > > farming 
> > > > > > > > from hunter-gathering did not improve the human lot for 
> those 
> > > who 
> > > > > > > > cleared and dug sod (arthritis etc. from the work).  The 
> obvious 
> > > > > issue 
> > > > > > > > for present society concerns the dubious status of our work 
> and 
> > > > > life- 
> > > > > > > > style ideologies.    Slave-making ants kill the adults in 
> their 
> > > host 
> > > > > > > > ants and steal the 'eggs' in order to steal the work as they 
> > > become 
> > > > > > > > adult by making them raise their own brood.  Even in 
> enslaved 
> > > ant 
> > > > > > > > consciousness something inspires 'rebellion' and 'duty' to 
> the 
> > > wider 
> > > > > > > > collective.  Humans have a sad history of enslavement and 
> debt 
> > > > > > > > peonage. 
> > > > > > > > Undergraduates can be heard every year bemoaning salaries on 
> > > offer 
> > > > > for 
> > > > > > > > 'all their hard work' - few of them have done any!  The 
> Chinese 
> > > > > refer 
> > > > > > > > to their graduates who don't get the good jobs as 'Ant 
> People'. 
> > > > >  Some 
> > > > > > > > of my old colleagues inside technological manufacturing used 
> to 
> > > note 
> > > > > > > > the need for workers was disappearing faster than most knew 
> as 
> > > work 
> > > > > > > > and skill is embodied in technology (an old marxist theme). 
>  My 
> > > own 
> > > > > > > > feeling is that we have killed off much valuable stuff that 
> > > James 
> > > > > > > > suggests through the ejukation system - falsely imagining 
> > > subjects 
> > > > > > > > designed in our dubious past teach anything other than 
> control 
> > > > > fraud. 
> > > > > > > > Even medical training involves a lot of unnecessary rot. 
> > > > > > > > Some of us think machines are better at 'thinking' than most 
> > > people 
> > > > > > > > (soon Gabby will be made redundant from her Gad-fly role 
> once I 
> > > > > clear 
> > > > > > > > up a few teething problems with the bots!), partly because 
> no 
> > > human 
> > > > > > > > can encompass the data loads.  Allan and I share problems 
> with 
> > > our 
> > > > > > > > 'flash memory' - buzz, ping, PTSD etc. - (it's my time of 
> year 
> > > to 
> > > > > have 
> > > > > > > > flash-backs to Northern Ireland) - getting old is lousy - 
> soon 
> > > my 
> > > > > > > > friendly solid state world will move from Enlightenment to 
> > > > > > > > Entanglement as I stroke Schrodinger's cat.  We have now 
> done 
> > > this 
> > > > > > > > experimentally with some tinkering. 
> > > > > > > > Memory is increasingly viewed as about our ability to 
> predict 
> > > the 
> > > > > > > > future - that is its purpose is for this.  We find it in 
> > > non-human 
> > > > > > > > life-forms too.  This is related to a general science-view 
> of 
> > > why a 
> > > > > > > > system would invest in the resources to have memory at all. 
> > >  I'll 
> > > > > > > > leave this babble with the question 'where do the Spartacus 
> ants 
> > > > > > > > raised by the slavers get the memories that inspire 
> rebellion'? 
> > 
> > > > > > > > On 6 Oct, 19:50, James <[email protected]> wrote: 
> > 
> > > > > > > > >  From another perspective one might like to appreciate the 
> > > role 
> > > > > (or a 
> > > > > > > > > role) of life as within an integral spectrum. If there is 
> a 
> > > world 
> > > > > with 
> > > > > > > > > meaning beyond our conceptions it would present a 
> challenge to 
> > > > > > > undertake 
> > > > > > > > > exploration and discovery. Regardless of conception or 
> outside 
> > > our 
> > > > > > > > > capacity we might be bound by greater rules in nature. 
> These 
> > > are 
> > > > > > > > > questions I think that arise when the suspicion of being 
> led 
> > > > > becomes 
> > > > > > > too 
> > > > > > > > > great to ignore, fear has a corrupting influence on that 
> as 
> > > does 
> > > > > the 
> > > > > > > > > diverse symbols at our disposal provided by language, 
> > > corrupting 
> > > > > as in 
> > > > > > > > > coloring and distorting. But the tools of identity, shared 
> > > > > language 
> > > > > > > and 
> > > > > > > > > meanings can facilitate discovery. Internal motives can 
> > > present a 
> > > > > > > > > struggle for a clear picture, and yet without them what 
> > > impetus 
> > > > > would 
> > > > > > > > > there be? Context is amazingly significant, the when and 
> > > where, 
> > > > > I've 
> > > > > > > > > found. That is in part a few features of what I am 
> exploring 
> > > > > > > currently, 
> > > > > > > > > among the jumble. This can be intimate stuff, thanks for 
> > > sharing 
> > > > > what 
> > > > > > > > > you gather. :) 
> > 
> > > > > > > > > On 10/5/2012 4:25 AM, Allan H wrote: 
> > 
> > > > > > > > > > Lately I have been trying to get out of this physical 
> > > concept of 
> > > > > > > things 
> > > > > > > > > > and look at them from a souls to return to soul with the 
> > > body as 
> > > > > > > nothing 
> > > > > > > > > > more than a means of existing in this physical world. 
>  this 
> > > > > seems to 
> > > > > > > be 
> > > > > > > > > > changing the perspective on what is conceived as 
> reality. 
> > > > > > > > > > Allan 
> > 
> > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 5:50 AM, James <
> [email protected] 
> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: 
> > 
> > > > > > > > > >     We may be on the same page Gabby, my imagined future 
> > > > > > > possibilities 
> > > > > > > > > >     are still clouded by unknowns (to me). That I 
> consider a 
> > > > > > > consequence 
> > > > > > > > > >     of mental bondage to current circumstances, and left 
> > > > > unchecked 
> > > > > > > can 
> > > > > > > > > >     be demoralizing to creative intelligence. As far as 
> I 
> > > can 
> > > > > tell 
> > > > > > > we 
> > > > > > > > > >     are meant to invent solutions to challenges, and 
> hold on 
> > > as 
> > > > > long 
> > > > > > > as 
> > > > > > > > > >     possible until the opportunity arises. My opinion is 
> > > that we 
> > > > > can 
> > > > > > > do 
> > > > > > > > > >     little to force change but as facilitators we can 
> pursue 
> > > > > > > strategic 
> > > > > > > > > >     challenges that will open those opportunities. 
> > 
> > > > > > > > > >     If I said that in 10 years the technology should be 
> > > > > accessible 
> > > > > > > to 
> > > > > > > > > >     refine garbage, wood or any other fuel into 
> electricity 
> > > at 
> > > > > 80+ 
> > > > > > > > > >     conversion efficiency from common household 
> materials in 
> > > > > your 
> > > > > > > > > >     average (modern) garage there is no shortage of 
> > > engineers 
> > > > > that 
> > > > > > > would 
> > > > > > > > > >     call me a quack. If I said that you could do it 
> today 
> > > with 
> > > > > > > moderate 
> > > > > > > > > >     access to materials refining equipment, with a net 
> > > generated 
> > > > > > > income 
> > > > > > > > > >     over the winter months, and it could be boosted by 
> > > running a 
> > > > > > > > > >     greenhouse and indoor fishery I would be surely 
> nuts. 
> > > SOFC, 
> > > > > > > steam 
> > > > > > > > > >     reforming, plasma reduction, pyrolytic reduction are 
> a 
> > > few 
> > > > > terms 
> > > > > > > for 
> > > > > > > > > >     that type of nut. 
> > 
> > > > > > > > > >     I think we are missing the spirit of engineering in 
> our 
> > > > > social 
> > > > > > > and 
> > > > > > > > > >     political dialogue. It could just be me.. we seem to 
> be 
> > > able 
> > > > > to 
> > > > > > > > > >     redefine just about any kind of waste into an asset, 
> but 
> > > we 
> > > > > > > insist 
> > 
> > ... 
> > 
> > read more ยป- Hide quoted text - 
> > 
> > - Show quoted text - 
>

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