Good morning Allan, I am glad you said accounting was a product and that you didn't say it was neutral tool. It is a man-made product to make exchanges or transformational actions look like it was a zero sum game we are all playing with the totAl yet to be achieved. Would this be an easy-to-understand summary of your view?
2013/2/2 Allan H <[email protected]> > I was thinking while playing mahjong (this particular game you lose > far more often than you win) thinking about accounting.. > the second you spin accounting you are defining your morality using it > yoor justify your actions.. accounting is extremely neutral with the > scales coming out in balance.. whether economic or spiritual > actually both because they are interlocked with each other. > > > On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 9:51 AM, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > > Well accounting is still a neutral product .. but people exploit it > > to get it to say what they want it to say.. if you get a hold of the > > books plus the hidden books you still can actually find out what is > > going on by questioning where the money is going.. Hiding money is > > not good accounting and is out right illegal.. or immoral.. it will > > show the hoarding or misuse of commodities. Accounting can show the > > viability of projects.. Great way to catch bad guys.. the > > enforcement of laws, which are a form of morality. > > Obama is nothing more than a moderate republican 3 decades back,, > > the republicans of to day are so extremist they would not have been > > tolerated. > > > > I think a new liberal party (ies) will begin to emerge,, as the > > extremist are taking their toll > > > > It is good to see you supporting Europe. > > > > On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 6:54 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > >> The kind of 'risk taking' we need is on building factories that will > >> provide good jobs doing stuff, say, like metal extraction from printed > >> circuit boards, developing petrol from air machines, new building > >> materials, greening communities - backing on the basis of belief > >> enough of our efforts will succeed and allow for some failures. > >> Soviet Paradise failed on such promises, so we need something else - > >> but we already have a bunch of rentiers bleeding our factories and > >> even hoarding food and commodities to increase the price in amounts as > >> serious as Mao's pillaging to build a navy from grain exports in his > >> mad fantasy of the Great Leap Forward. > >> > >> I take delivery of a German car on Tuesday morning. It would be > >> interesting to know how much war criminal investment is involved in > >> that, how much North Sea Oil revenue was wasted in the City instead of > >> developing Rovoer and so on. But even if the UK was again the > >> workshop of the world, in doing so who would we be selling to in the > >> rest of the world beggared by our industrial success? - a situation > >> Germany is in to some extent. > >> > >> If accounting told us about money Allan we'd have fewer problems. It > >> is not a neutral product. I even suspect if it was neutral capitalist- > >> socialist argument would be irrelevant because we'd have an accurate > >> account of what is going on. > >> > >> On 1 Feb, 15:18, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> Neither is capitalism an accounting system... Accounting is > >>> accounting and simply tells you where your money is going and where > >>> it is.. it is not an economic system accounting will work wither > >>> any "ism" > >>> > >>> Sorry about the delay answering Neil.. Over simplification of > >>> spiritual concept is a blessing not a curse.. It is meant and stated > >>> so that even a child can understand what is said and abide by the > >>> spiritual idea. As I see it stating simple ideas into complex > >>> statements is not much more than an excuse to use when trying follow a > >>> spiritual path.. > >>> If a child can understand a spiritual path, then hopefully you too > >>> can understand the path to follow. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 2:57 PM, rigs <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > As if socialism is not also an accounting system!!! It is possible > for > >>> > capitalism to be compassionate and altruistic versus enforcement with > >>> > hidden motives.//We have not escaped the past either. You may still > be > >>> > eating grass porridge as oatmeal. :-) > >>> > >>> > On Jan 31, 7:30 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> >> I like the divine right analogy rigs. I don't favour capitalism for > >>> >> much the same reason. Much discussion of right and wrong is stuck > in > >>> >> a past we need to escape. Origin is difficult. Born a Scot I might > >>> >> revere our heritage - but 3000 years ago 'we' were likely German > >>> >> farmers eating 'grass porridge'. Capitalism broke up much of > >>> >> feudalism, but I suspect it was no more than a revision of Domesday > >>> >> Book accounting and labour exploitation. Much of what actually goes > >>> >> on is not capitalism but the establishment of rents through > financial > >>> >> manipulations - essentially a control fraud by the rentier-class. > >>> >> We've been had on a butty - and need more modern argument based on > >>> >> what we know, facts shared in a common language. > >>> >> There is a literature suggesting our environmental knowledge is now > >>> >> important in moral decision-making I think we have missed a lot > >>> >> before this. Current technology is good enough for us to create > self- > >>> >> sustaining communities and give up on empire. We need to > re-evaluate > >>> >> our morality against this. I don't see this leading to socialism > and > >>> >> any aim seems to me to be about considerably more freedom - from > such > >>> >> things as war, work ethics formed in times of shortage and need for > >>> >> hard labour and so on. The Soviet empire was much like the Tsars it > >>> >> replaced - we used to call the KGB 'Checkists' after the Tsar's > secret > >>> >> police. > >>> >> I suspect capitalism - unless used as a pejorative - is little more > >>> >> than an accounting system. The problem lies in its corruption. > >>> >> People cheat and cheats like crimogenic systems that allow work in > the > >>> >> dark. The umpire in cricket is now redundant - machines are better. > >>> >> We could have had a machine accounting system on a global basis by > now > >>> >> - instead machines play a bigger role in cheating. Capitalism with > >>> >> fair accounting presents few problems except for losers in the > >>> >> competition. In sport we have competitions that allow losers first > >>> >> draft picks and our course there is no competition if one eradicates > >>> >> the competition. Wigan's dominance of the Rugby League was truly > >>> >> horrible - it was hard t turn up to watch knowing every other team > >>> >> would lose. > >>> >> The pathway to Hell is lined with good intentions Gabby - we are > >>> >> scared of change. Does anyone now believe that rule by the > Guardians > >>> >> of future socialist paradise can be established to wither away? > Or > >>> >> that the rentiers will wither away as Keynes hoped? And are such > >>> >> matters not the same coin, merely opposite sides? Capitalism has > run > >>> >> up a lot of debt - are we so sure of it we can do away with time- > >>> >> honoured debt jubilee? Would it not make more sense to give away > what > >>> >> we have built already to the people, have something of a leveling > and > >>> >> start again with a new focus on sustainability? > >>> >> The genuine capitalist firm treats finance as a cost - it is > difficult > >>> >> to see from this how the vast transactions of financial services are > >>> >> not parasitic on such firms and all of us. The bubbles created > cause > >>> >> much misery and form part of a vast Ponzi scheme we have no need of. > >>> >> Beyond this, capitalism is really assumed to be a dirty game of > beggar > >>> >> thy neighbour we are ahead in and need to stay ahead in or we'll > lose > >>> >> military edge (and so on). We end up justifying doing bad things > for > >>> >> the greater end and rationalising this as moral. > >>> > >>> >> On Jan 31, 9:14 am, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> >> > The way you contrast socialism and capitalism is like contrasting > >>> >> > creationism versus evolutionism. And by the natural law that the > fittest > >>> >> > will survive you are right to have decided for the evolutionary > view. > >>> > >>> >> > I don't think - and the exchange in this group has helped me a > lot to see > >>> >> > this clearer - we should forget how tempting the search for the > right > >>> >> > answers is. > >>> > >>> >> > 2013/1/31 rigs <[email protected]> > >>> > >>> >> > > I am a fan of capitalism. I consider Marxism and Fascism as an > >>> >> > > extension of socialism which is an extension of divine > rights,etc., > >>> >> > > i.e. theft, redistribution of another's wealth and labor, > weakening of > >>> >> > > the body politic (a form of serfdom) which turns governments > into > >>> >> > > bloodsuckers via taxes and debt.//Do you think economics is a > valid > >>> >> > > science? Why, when it has flopped so many times.//We need > production > >>> >> > > and labor plus consumption so there is a need for immigrants > into > >>> >> > > white industrial countries to make up for the decline of white > births > >>> >> > > (55 million abortions plus birth control). But I wonder if > illegals > >>> >> > > will pay back taxes and bother to learn English. It might go > smoother > >>> >> > > if we learn Spanish and Europe learn Arabic.//Family can also > hurt > >>> >> > > people but sometimes that hurt teaches valuable lessons. It is > easier > >>> >> > > to leave some people and events to Heaven though it would > probably > >>> >> > > spell the end of the legal profession. > >>> > >>> >> > > On Jan 30, 4:56 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> >> > > > I'm not sure the audience is as wide as your estimate rigs. > >>> >> > > > Technically I am hospitable to any theoretical view from > marxism to > >>> >> > > > fascism - though I tend to dislike theoretical views - and > hospitable > >>> >> > > > to Islamic theory/s in business analysis - and to guests in my > >>> >> > > > classrooms from all backgrounds. This is easy enough - as > easy as > >>> >> > > > offering to put you up if you were travelling in the UK. The > >>> >> > > > difficult bit is in reciprocity - here we might think of the > Maussian > >>> >> > > > concept of the gift and many examples in 'stoneage economics' > - what > >>> >> > > > is expect of a guest in return. One gives freely - a few > nights stay > >>> >> > > > is not given for a return of a few nights stay and so on - > yet one > >>> >> > > > does not generally keep giving to inhospitable guests. One > can > >>> >> > > > discuss racism yet not tolerate racists - but to brand people > >>> >> > > > concerned their opportunities for homes and work are > disappearing in > >>> >> > > > immigration flows as racist who raise these issues with some > hatred on > >>> >> > > > the people taking them is also wrong (particularly if done by > >>> >> > > > politically correct idiots whose homes and jobs are not under > such > >>> >> > > > threat). Hospitality is sometimes easy, sometimes very hard > work, can > >>> >> > > > be a treat or pain - but is always already reciprocal in > intent even > >>> >> > > > if no commodity exchange is meant. I prefer to be hospitable > to you > >>> >> > > > rigs than tolerant - tolerance has pratronising aspects - and > this is > >>> >> > > > my general approach to things intellectual. It's easy with > you as I > >>> >> > > > like what I hear. I have lost hospitality to politics. Left > to typo > >>> >> > > > as it hits the meaning better than the word I intended! > >>> > >>> >> > > > People hurt us Andrew. We hurt them. Some is intentional > some not. > >>> >> > > > Gossip is often vicious from the pub to academic cloister. > >>> >> > > > Transactional analysis isn't a bad place to look at how rigs' > >>> >> > > > "balanced score card" builds up in personal relationships - > Eric > >>> >> > > > Berne's 'Games People Play' is still. the best book. Only > friends can > >>> >> > > > generally hurt us as we come to expect better from them, > value them > >>> >> > > > and so on. Friendship is easily mimicked and sometimes that > small > >>> >> > > > thing you mention may reveal the charade. Sometimes we take > things > >>> >> > > > too hard and should just let an incident wash away. This can > be > >>> >> > > > particularly hard if you've been collecting brown stamps > (been shit > >>> >> > > > on) in too many recent encounters. I used to go to the pub > every > >>> >> > > > Friday to get rid of my collection - but this habit itself > became a > >>> >> > > > brown stamp. I'm not religious but there's lots in > forgiveness and > >>> >> > > > 'there but for the grace of god go I'. > >>> > >>> >> > > > On 29 Jan, 19:11, rigs <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> >> > > > > Please define what you mean by "hospitality"- of the > individual, the > >>> >> > > > > group, nations. Thanks. :-) > >>> > >>> >> > > > > On Jan 29, 5:22 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> >> > > > > > I think the first consideration is hospitality rigs. > >>> > >>> >> > > > > > On Jan 29, 12:10 am, rigs <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> >> > > > > > > At least some had good intentions re empires- maybe > that should be > >>> >> > > > > > > noted. And I believe in good intentions, myself- don't > you? It's > >>> >> > > > > > > likely a project for those two columCouldns of thinking > and > >>> >> > > sorting. > >>> > >>> >> > > > > > > On Jan 28, 6:41 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> >> > > > > > > > Good question Andrew - though we could wonder why > most people > >>> >> > > have > >>> >> > > > > > > > rosy views of the US and British empires, pretty much > against > >>> >> > > the real > >>> >> > > > > > > > history. > >>> > >>> >> > > > > > > > On Jan 28, 11:19 am, rigs <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> ... > >>> > >>> read more ยป > >> > >> -- > >> > >> --- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > ( > > ) > > |_D Allan > > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living. > > > > Of course I talk to myself, > > Sometimes I need expert advice.. > > > > -- > ( > ) > |_D Allan > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living. > > Of course I talk to myself, > Sometimes I need expert advice.. > > -- > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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