Which side were you on Facil? On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 2:18:47 PM UTC, facilitator wrote: > > > <https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-c6nowWvpqEo/VP79GEO-8kI/AAAAAAAAAHg/cpsPYH_I828/s1600/Copy%2Bof%2Bnew%2Bsculpt%2Band%2Bcanjo%2B037.jpg> > We did battle with them on Targuus. > > On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 7:10:46 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >> >> Russian Facilitator >> >> >> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 9:18:16 AM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote: >>> >>> RP Neil asked the question and brought up the Russian soul. I had to >>> look up what he was saying and wiki has an excellent and interesting >>> explanation. Well worth reading and it is not a book. >>> The russian soul is semi defined as what it characteristics are as i >>> think about what i have written within the group I have said much the same >>> things. That is really strange because I have never heard it before and yet >>> have reached the same answers.. only they were reached before this body's >>> time. I keep telling you Tony I am not an old man.. >>> >>> When forget the difference or at least ignore them it really becomes >>> amazing the similarities that does exist.. several conclusions can be >>> reached whether they are right or not is another question. >>> >>> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين >>> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RP Singh <[email protected]> >>> To: Minds Eye <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 9:56 AM >>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Rule By Machine >>> >>> Allan, I thought you were American. >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 12:01 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> The Hindu beliefs say you live for ever.. as does my Russian soul. >>>> >>>> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين >>>> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RP Singh <[email protected]> >>>> To: Minds Eye <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 4:55 AM >>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Rule By Machine >>>> >>>> The idea of death just drives the shit out of us, the survival instinct >>>> is that strong. That is the reason for our belief in souls, after-life, >>>> etc. We just want to live for ever. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 7:33 AM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> We are biological organisms, Neil, and will remain thus. The future >>>>> would either belong to us with us as the drivers and the controllers or >>>>> to >>>>> the machines. It would be a case of biological supremacy or robottical >>>>> supremacy. In the end there would be doomsday and we together with >>>>> machines >>>>> and the universe would be annihilated by the Supreme force which is >>>>> neither >>>>> machine nor human. It is just a discussion between the few us and I don't >>>>> think it would ever reach the ears of those who make policies in this >>>>> world >>>>> and yet not superfluous as it is a good exercise of the brain muscle, is >>>>> it >>>>> not, Neil? >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 7:08 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> We are already becoming useless appendages to the bosses. Once >>>>>> robots can do the work, the bosses will dispose of us. If the machines >>>>>> became Terminators, they would only be doing what humans have done to >>>>>> countless species. We might, of course RP, become the machines. >>>>>> >>>>>> The women aren't in this thread - is this a boy's toys thing? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 1:20:35 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Machines might not even want us, Neil. We might be useless appendage >>>>>>> to them and might be exterminated. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 6:23 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We might already be living under the tyranny of our gene machines >>>>>>>> RP. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 10 March 2015 00:22:49 UTC, RP Singh wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As long as man is sane he will not destroy humanity though he >>>>>>>>> might loot it for self aggrandizement, But some contribution to the >>>>>>>>> human >>>>>>>>> pool will remain, We can't be that sure with machines and they must >>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>> remain subservient to us otherwise we will be at risk to lose the >>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>> freedom for which we are making so much effort. Again, my contention >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> know your nature and potential before you make machines that surpass >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>> intelligence because cold and calculating freaks might not be loyal >>>>>>>>> to us, >>>>>>>>> rather live in tyranny of humans than under the rule of heartless >>>>>>>>> machines. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 5:26 AM, frantheman <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have always regarded Ursula Le Guin's *The Dispossessed >>>>>>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dispossessed> *as one of the >>>>>>>>>> greatest SF novels ever written. In her depiction of the anarchist >>>>>>>>>> society >>>>>>>>>> of Annares, the whole administration of practical organisation is >>>>>>>>>> carried >>>>>>>>>> out by computers. This serves to take a major component of the >>>>>>>>>> exercise of >>>>>>>>>> power out of the area of human relations. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Rule" is basically the exercise of power. The will to power >>>>>>>>>> seems to be one of the strongest human urges - indeed, it's wider >>>>>>>>>> than just >>>>>>>>>> human - take the constant jostling for rank and status in a >>>>>>>>>> wolf-pack, for >>>>>>>>>> example. I suspect most of those of us involved here in this forum >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> freaks as we don't seem to possess much of it. Personally I don't >>>>>>>>>> get it, >>>>>>>>>> but I must acknowledge that it seems to be (and always has been) an >>>>>>>>>> immensely strong driving force for a lot of people. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Our concepts of freedom and autonomy make my initial reaction to >>>>>>>>>> the idea of "rule by machine" instinctively and immediately >>>>>>>>>> suspicious. But >>>>>>>>>> then, on reflection, I'm already being "ruled" by all sorts of >>>>>>>>>> shadowy >>>>>>>>>> people/groups/elites, who daily make all sorts of decisions which >>>>>>>>>> have huge >>>>>>>>>> effects on the life I live and who certainly don't have an sense of >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> well-being in mind (apart from that portion of my material assets >>>>>>>>>> which is >>>>>>>>>> part of a pension fund/savings/investment fund/life insurance - >>>>>>>>>> which then >>>>>>>>>> has the notionally privileged status of being the object of >>>>>>>>>> shareholder-value). Could machines fuck things up any worse than >>>>>>>>>> humans do >>>>>>>>>> at the moment? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I wonder if there aren't some deep neurotic guilt/fear things at >>>>>>>>>> work here. There's the old story of the Sorcerer's Apprentice, who >>>>>>>>>> Goethe >>>>>>>>>> has despairingly calling out; "Herr, die Noth ist groß! Die ich >>>>>>>>>> rief, die >>>>>>>>>> Geister, Werd’ ich nun nicht los. [Master, I'm in deep shit here! I >>>>>>>>>> can't >>>>>>>>>> get rid of the fucking spirits I summoned]." Or the idea that when >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> Singularity >>>>>>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity> comes, >>>>>>>>>> the first things the machine intelligences will do is get rid of us >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> being hopelessly corrupt and imperfect. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's the feeling that we're giving over control to something else >>>>>>>>>> - something we may try to programme so that it is benevolent towards >>>>>>>>>> us - >>>>>>>>>> but where there are no guarantees. But what guarantees do we have >>>>>>>>>> right >>>>>>>>>> now? And who controls? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Am Montag, 9. März 2015 08:44:34 UTC+1 schrieb archytas: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Human leadership is corrupt. The history is clear. We form >>>>>>>>>>> empires of violence. At the start of WW1, about 1911 with the >>>>>>>>>>> Italian >>>>>>>>>>> invasion of part of the declining Ottoman Empire, we had a >>>>>>>>>>> population the >>>>>>>>>>> planet could manage, new technologies that could have released us >>>>>>>>>>> from work >>>>>>>>>>> serfdom and the potential to grow green and surpass our >>>>>>>>>>> libidinal-violent >>>>>>>>>>> biology. Instead we went to war and have over-populated like a >>>>>>>>>>> bacterial >>>>>>>>>>> colony poisoning itself. This war to end all war led to another >>>>>>>>>>> one, >>>>>>>>>>> largely about exhausting the Wehrmacht on Soviet forces. I have no >>>>>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>>>>>> how these wars started, interesting given how much education I've >>>>>>>>>>> had. The >>>>>>>>>>> Americans won and everyone else lost, but Americans generally >>>>>>>>>>> wanted no >>>>>>>>>>> part of the stuff. Various fables on cause make no sense. Much >>>>>>>>>>> can be >>>>>>>>>>> said on this, yet we evade the fairly obvious reality that human >>>>>>>>>>> society is >>>>>>>>>>> generally dire. About 250,000 of the 400,000 inhabitants of the >>>>>>>>>>> zenith of >>>>>>>>>>> the Athenian democracy were slaves, and slaving was the major Black >>>>>>>>>>> Sea >>>>>>>>>>> industry from then until 1870. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Machines could help us get over ourselves and establish a >>>>>>>>>>> rational society. This would be a rebellion to remove the >>>>>>>>>>> allocation class >>>>>>>>>>> that owns nearly everything a monetary value can be put on. We >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> embody knowledge in the machines (we already do) and rely on their >>>>>>>>>>> genuine >>>>>>>>>>> rationality instead of our faux version, corrupted by our >>>>>>>>>>> libidinal-violent >>>>>>>>>>> biology. Most people are very scared of intelligent machines and >>>>>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>>>>>> like the idea humans are superior because we can remove their >>>>>>>>>>> plugs. We >>>>>>>>>>> worry they will destroy us in a world with 8,000 nuclear weapons in >>>>>>>>>>> safe >>>>>>>>>>> human hands that are not problematic. Genghis Khan killed about a >>>>>>>>>>> third of >>>>>>>>>>> his known world's population. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Why do we hate machines so much? Do we fear their rationality >>>>>>>>>>> shames us? We are all now chronically ignorant compared with >>>>>>>>>>> extra-somatic >>>>>>>>>>> databases. Maybe we fear control by machines operating in the >>>>>>>>>>> interests of >>>>>>>>>>> a small group or police state - yet this 'machine' is already in >>>>>>>>>>> place as a >>>>>>>>>>> socio-technical human endeavor as the allocation class in real >>>>>>>>>>> power we >>>>>>>>>>> can't vote out. We could change a lot if we weren't so naff about >>>>>>>>>>> this. >>>>>>>>>>> Anyone here even think about it? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In terms of data, what we chatter about, changes as data if we >>>>>>>>>>> are not actually interested in large-scale human change. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>
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