Running away is under-rated. On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 5:22:14 PM UTC, facilitator wrote: > > The side that had to retreat. They were backed by the Russian quadrant. > > On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 1:19:42 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >> >> Which side were you on Facil? >> >> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 2:18:47 PM UTC, facilitator wrote: >>> >>> >>> <https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-c6nowWvpqEo/VP79GEO-8kI/AAAAAAAAAHg/cpsPYH_I828/s1600/Copy%2Bof%2Bnew%2Bsculpt%2Band%2Bcanjo%2B037.jpg> >>> We did battle with them on Targuus. >>> >>> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 7:10:46 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>> >>>> Russian Facilitator >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 9:18:16 AM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>> >>>>> RP Neil asked the question and brought up the Russian soul. I had to >>>>> look up what he was saying and wiki has an excellent and interesting >>>>> explanation. Well worth reading and it is not a book. >>>>> The russian soul is semi defined as what it characteristics are as i >>>>> think about what i have written within the group I have said much the >>>>> same >>>>> things. That is really strange because I have never heard it before and >>>>> yet >>>>> have reached the same answers.. only they were reached before this body's >>>>> time. I keep telling you Tony I am not an old man.. >>>>> >>>>> When forget the difference or at least ignore them it really becomes >>>>> amazing the similarities that does exist.. several conclusions can be >>>>> reached whether they are right or not is another question. >>>>> >>>>> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين >>>>> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: RP Singh <[email protected]> >>>>> To: Minds Eye <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 9:56 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Rule By Machine >>>>> >>>>> Allan, I thought you were American. >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 12:01 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The Hindu beliefs say you live for ever.. as does my Russian soul. >>>>>> >>>>>> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين >>>>>> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: RP Singh <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: Minds Eye <[email protected]> >>>>>> Sent: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 4:55 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Rule By Machine >>>>>> >>>>>> The idea of death just drives the shit out of us, the survival >>>>>> instinct is that strong. That is the reason for our belief in souls, >>>>>> after-life, etc. We just want to live for ever. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 7:33 AM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> We are biological organisms, Neil, and will remain thus. The future >>>>>>> would either belong to us with us as the drivers and the controllers or >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the machines. It would be a case of biological supremacy or robottical >>>>>>> supremacy. In the end there would be doomsday and we together with >>>>>>> machines >>>>>>> and the universe would be annihilated by the Supreme force which is >>>>>>> neither >>>>>>> machine nor human. It is just a discussion between the few us and I >>>>>>> don't >>>>>>> think it would ever reach the ears of those who make policies in this >>>>>>> world >>>>>>> and yet not superfluous as it is a good exercise of the brain muscle, >>>>>>> is it >>>>>>> not, Neil? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 7:08 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We are already becoming useless appendages to the bosses. Once >>>>>>>> robots can do the work, the bosses will dispose of us. If the >>>>>>>> machines >>>>>>>> became Terminators, they would only be doing what humans have done to >>>>>>>> countless species. We might, of course RP, become the machines. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The women aren't in this thread - is this a boy's toys thing? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 1:20:35 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Machines might not even want us, Neil. We might be useless >>>>>>>>> appendage to them and might be exterminated. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 6:23 AM, archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We might already be living under the tyranny of our gene machines >>>>>>>>>> RP. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 10 March 2015 00:22:49 UTC, RP Singh wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As long as man is sane he will not destroy humanity though he >>>>>>>>>>> might loot it for self aggrandizement, But some contribution to the >>>>>>>>>>> human >>>>>>>>>>> pool will remain, We can't be that sure with machines and they must >>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>> remain subservient to us otherwise we will be at risk to lose the >>>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>> freedom for which we are making so much effort. Again, my >>>>>>>>>>> contention is >>>>>>>>>>> know your nature and potential before you make machines that >>>>>>>>>>> surpass our >>>>>>>>>>> intelligence because cold and calculating freaks might not be loyal >>>>>>>>>>> to us, >>>>>>>>>>> rather live in tyranny of humans than under the rule of heartless >>>>>>>>>>> machines. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 5:26 AM, frantheman <[email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have always regarded Ursula Le Guin's *The Dispossessed >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dispossessed> *as one of the >>>>>>>>>>>> greatest SF novels ever written. In her depiction of the anarchist >>>>>>>>>>>> society >>>>>>>>>>>> of Annares, the whole administration of practical organisation is >>>>>>>>>>>> carried >>>>>>>>>>>> out by computers. This serves to take a major component of the >>>>>>>>>>>> exercise of >>>>>>>>>>>> power out of the area of human relations. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "Rule" is basically the exercise of power. The will to power >>>>>>>>>>>> seems to be one of the strongest human urges - indeed, it's wider >>>>>>>>>>>> than just >>>>>>>>>>>> human - take the constant jostling for rank and status in a >>>>>>>>>>>> wolf-pack, for >>>>>>>>>>>> example. I suspect most of those of us involved here in this forum >>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> freaks as we don't seem to possess much of it. Personally I don't >>>>>>>>>>>> get it, >>>>>>>>>>>> but I must acknowledge that it seems to be (and always has been) >>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> immensely strong driving force for a lot of people. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Our concepts of freedom and autonomy make my initial reaction >>>>>>>>>>>> to the idea of "rule by machine" instinctively and immediately >>>>>>>>>>>> suspicious. >>>>>>>>>>>> But then, on reflection, I'm already being "ruled" by all sorts of >>>>>>>>>>>> shadowy >>>>>>>>>>>> people/groups/elites, who daily make all sorts of decisions which >>>>>>>>>>>> have huge >>>>>>>>>>>> effects on the life I live and who certainly don't have an sense >>>>>>>>>>>> of my >>>>>>>>>>>> well-being in mind (apart from that portion of my material assets >>>>>>>>>>>> which is >>>>>>>>>>>> part of a pension fund/savings/investment fund/life insurance - >>>>>>>>>>>> which then >>>>>>>>>>>> has the notionally privileged status of being the object of >>>>>>>>>>>> shareholder-value). Could machines fuck things up any worse than >>>>>>>>>>>> humans do >>>>>>>>>>>> at the moment? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if there aren't some deep neurotic guilt/fear things >>>>>>>>>>>> at work here. There's the old story of the Sorcerer's Apprentice, >>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>> Goethe has despairingly calling out; "Herr, die Noth ist groß! Die >>>>>>>>>>>> ich >>>>>>>>>>>> rief, die Geister, Werd’ ich nun nicht los. [Master, I'm in deep >>>>>>>>>>>> shit here! >>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get rid of the fucking spirits I summoned]." Or the idea >>>>>>>>>>>> that when the >>>>>>>>>>>> Singularity >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity> comes, >>>>>>>>>>>> the first things the machine intelligences will do is get rid of >>>>>>>>>>>> us for >>>>>>>>>>>> being hopelessly corrupt and imperfect. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It's the feeling that we're giving over control to something >>>>>>>>>>>> else - something we may try to programme so that it is benevolent >>>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>>> us - but where there are no guarantees. But what guarantees do we >>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>> right now? And who controls? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Am Montag, 9. März 2015 08:44:34 UTC+1 schrieb archytas: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Human leadership is corrupt. The history is clear. We form >>>>>>>>>>>>> empires of violence. At the start of WW1, about 1911 with the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Italian >>>>>>>>>>>>> invasion of part of the declining Ottoman Empire, we had a >>>>>>>>>>>>> population the >>>>>>>>>>>>> planet could manage, new technologies that could have released us >>>>>>>>>>>>> from work >>>>>>>>>>>>> serfdom and the potential to grow green and surpass our >>>>>>>>>>>>> libidinal-violent >>>>>>>>>>>>> biology. Instead we went to war and have over-populated like a >>>>>>>>>>>>> bacterial >>>>>>>>>>>>> colony poisoning itself. This war to end all war led to another >>>>>>>>>>>>> one, >>>>>>>>>>>>> largely about exhausting the Wehrmacht on Soviet forces. I have >>>>>>>>>>>>> no idea >>>>>>>>>>>>> how these wars started, interesting given how much education I've >>>>>>>>>>>>> had. The >>>>>>>>>>>>> Americans won and everyone else lost, but Americans generally >>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted no >>>>>>>>>>>>> part of the stuff. Various fables on cause make no sense. Much >>>>>>>>>>>>> can be >>>>>>>>>>>>> said on this, yet we evade the fairly obvious reality that human >>>>>>>>>>>>> society is >>>>>>>>>>>>> generally dire. About 250,000 of the 400,000 inhabitants of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> zenith of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Athenian democracy were slaves, and slaving was the major >>>>>>>>>>>>> Black Sea >>>>>>>>>>>>> industry from then until 1870. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Machines could help us get over ourselves and establish a >>>>>>>>>>>>> rational society. This would be a rebellion to remove the >>>>>>>>>>>>> allocation class >>>>>>>>>>>>> that owns nearly everything a monetary value can be put on. We >>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>> embody knowledge in the machines (we already do) and rely on >>>>>>>>>>>>> their genuine >>>>>>>>>>>>> rationality instead of our faux version, corrupted by our >>>>>>>>>>>>> libidinal-violent >>>>>>>>>>>>> biology. Most people are very scared of intelligent machines and >>>>>>>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>>>>>>>> like the idea humans are superior because we can remove their >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugs. We >>>>>>>>>>>>> worry they will destroy us in a world with 8,000 nuclear weapons >>>>>>>>>>>>> in safe >>>>>>>>>>>>> human hands that are not problematic. Genghis Khan killed about >>>>>>>>>>>>> a third of >>>>>>>>>>>>> his known world's population. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do we hate machines so much? Do we fear their rationality >>>>>>>>>>>>> shames us? We are all now chronically ignorant compared with >>>>>>>>>>>>> extra-somatic >>>>>>>>>>>>> databases. Maybe we fear control by machines operating in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> interests of >>>>>>>>>>>>> a small group or police state - yet this 'machine' is already in >>>>>>>>>>>>> place as a >>>>>>>>>>>>> socio-technical human endeavor as the allocation class in real >>>>>>>>>>>>> power we >>>>>>>>>>>>> can't vote out. We could change a lot if we weren't so naff >>>>>>>>>>>>> about this. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone here even think about it? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In terms of data, what we chatter about, changes as data if we >>>>>>>>>>>>> are not actually interested in large-scale human change. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>
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