Ham, I have no idea what gav and others are talking about. I'm going to think real hard and watch a bird pop out of thin air just as I thought it would be a good idea. While I'm at it my idea of a tree growing on the moon will happen tonight too.
SA > > [Gav said]: > > > Prior to conceptual reality is the > > undifferentiated flux of the present. > > > Conceptual reality is *abstracted* from this > flux. > > this abstraction is > > > a mental process. a process of ideation. > > > > ham: Ideation is a good metaphor for > intellectualization. > '> But it does not create > > the "stuff" of the universe. > > gav: yes it does. this point is unequivocal. this > point is found in all traditions and in the work of > good western philosophers like schopenhauer, pirsig > and plato. > > our problem accepting this point is due to our > fixation with material reality - literally. > 'material > reality' ain't fixed. if you have ever had a strong > psychedelic experience you will have experienced > first > hand that that which we thought was static and > concrete is actually in flux. > > there is no dilemma here, only a call for a profound > shift in perspective. a totally new worldview is the > result - one in which the observer is intimately > aware > of his/her creative relationship to what is > observed. > > ian said: > > ie our idea of matter as material objects is > > literally not real, not > > pre-existing our experience and conceptions. > > i need to try bergson out again. i found him very > hard > going last time. but yes he seems to be on the same > page. > > if we approach this question from a physics angle we > get to the same conclusion. matter consists of > infinitesimally small particles that zip round and > blip in and out of existence. matter becomes a field > of potentiality. a field that is itself infinite: > unlimited in space and time. indeed space and time > are > found to have no objective reality, therefore how > can > matter? the observer creates what is perceived > (unconsciously usually) every moment. > > even if this seems just too bizarre, just accept it > hypothetically....can you see now how the idea of > god > becomes meaningful rather than an abstract > non-entity? > > > even in the christian sense...'in the beginning was > the word'...this actually makes sense when you > consider it from this perspective as the 'word' is > an > idea given creative power. > > i should probably read the bible too i think. > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Sick of deleting your inbox? Yahoo!7 Mail has free > unlimited storage. > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/unlimitedstorage.html > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
