> > Ron Kulp said:
> > ...Pirsig placed value (quality) before subject
and object in the
> SODV paper and supported what Dan stated - that
ideas actually
> > do come before matter. I questioned how literal
does he mean
> this? Is he saying that ideas create matter
scientifically? If he does
> mean this, doesn't this concept then render ultimate
reality as
> subjective in origin?
[gav]
undifferentiated reality is an immersive experience
which occurs regularly but fleetingly during our days.
extending the duration of immersion is the whole ball
game as far as i can tell. conceptual reality loses
its authority the more time one spends in a meditative
state. a peaceful soul and by extension a peaceful
world are the result.
Ian, dmb, and gav, you brought up good points.
Ian you mentioned 'idea about matter', which probably
helps explain this 'ideas before matter' as brought up
by Ron above. I agree ideas do form matter, that is,
they creatively sculpt matter into a defineable
something. I still can't see this as a one-way
street: ideas ----> matter. Matter influences the
conclusion in the sculpting. An oil painting 'looks'
different than a water color painting. I'm not
focusing on 'looks'. I'm not focusing on how this
conclusion is understood by humans. Sure we use our
senses, and our biology will channel 'something' about
the painting that only our senses could, for instance,
in the night sky if a gamma-ray telescope is used
another perspective that our senses wouldn't notice is
now perceived by this technology. If I focus on my
eyes, for example, and say my eyes/mind are coming up
with the idea of oil and water-colors, then the
differences between the two is ignored and written off
as conceptual conclusions only, if seen from one
perspective. The differences in the two could be more
easily concluded as non-conceptual, but it is this
description of the differences that might lock the
results of them being oil or water-color as conceptual
properties only. It is this subjective/idea only
leaning that is SOM trappings. It's easy to say, yeah
our minds are making this all up, but it is also
understandable, as Pirsig transcribes for us, that the
static patterns are in four levels. How reality is
the intellectual level only is difficult to fathom,
and this difficulty doesn't provide the punch of a
strong opposition, it is the biological senses, namely
of touch, that states yes, what you've concluded is
also found outside your mind. The conclusions of
reality don't begin upon the intellectual level and
these conclusions don't begin on the inorganic level,
for human beings. Dynamic quality, this
undifferentiation that gav above points out, this dq
is all of these levels and the flow goes inorganic
--->intelletual as well as intellectual ---> inorganic
(this approach differs from the one-way street
analogy).
I'm concluding that analogy and value in SOM
would be subjective in nature. Yet, according to the
MoQ, I experience analogy and value in a different
way. As gav points out, it is the endurance of
immersion, upon a meditative state, in which
undifferentiation is concluded. Thus, analogy is not
only intellectual, but inorganic. This is not seen in
the SOM trappings where analogy is subjective, mind,
and idea orientated only. Analogy includes an
inorganic definition, a definition that is not one of
the mind and thought. It is not saying the inorganic
level is born of a mind whether cosmos or godly.
Analogy, in the MOQ, is changed. Analogy is change.
Analogy is not only possibilities and probabilities,
but it is creative. This is how rivers move sand
grains upon floodplains, and new understandings of
reality and its' appearance and way is not what it
once was on the literal floodplain. The floodplain
has been changed in the storm. The river is
analogizing reality. I'm not overlapping and
projecting the intellectual level upon the inorganic
level only. The inorganic level and all the other
levels are projecting their changes upon the
intellectual level of this human being, as well.
Analogies upon each of the levels are analogizing
dynamic quality.
SA
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the
tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
