Comments below:
> [Ron previously]
> > I suppose I might be bias in the area of the
> > statement,
> > When I was a professional illustrator I would get
> > clients
> > Who would say "I'll know it when I see it" which
> > didn't tell
> > Me a damn thing except that it's up to you to find
> > out what I like.
> > Like I said it didn't give me a gosh damn clue.
> > At best it was a vague gesture at the moon which
> > could mean
> > Anything in the moons general direction.
> > 9 times out of 10 what they thought was good was
> > utter crap to me.
> > But that was because I was more tuned to what was
> > culturally acceptable
> > And expected within that realm.
> SA previously:
> Could you let them know what was good or what
> was
> good was only according to what you thought was
> good?
> How did you know what was good? How were you tuned
> in
> to what a culture wanted and they weren't? Did they
> live in another culture?
> Ron:
> How I learned what was good was by observing
> culturally accepted
> examples
> Of what was good which I have to admit, having been
> raised in the
> culture
> Colors my own perception. Art school honed that
> ideal of high value art
> By granting me a graduation cert. and a 3.45 grade
> average for my
> perception
> Of what was culturally acceptable as good. And being
> able to produce it.
> It is the business of creating symbol (the
> commercial part) .
> Attractive symbols grab attention and sell products.
> Most people do not develop this sort of sensitivity
> in this area of
> Perception but most clients come from the angle
> that they want what pay
> for
> Instead of wanting whats best. They don't seem to
> realize that they are
> Not only paying for artistic ability but our
> developed sensitivities for
> Creating a successful piece that will achieve the
> objective (creating
> revenue usually)
ok
> [Ron previously]
> > I guess what I'm saying is "I know it when I see
> it" Only is applicable to the one making the
> statement.
> > It doesn't tell anyone else a thing.
>
> SA previously:
> What is quality? I've been discussing this for
> some time now, and I see dmb agrees with me.
>
>
> Ron:
> On an individual basis I agree. But who of us was
> born and raised without
> Culture? Do not a certain level of our values must
> be in accordance
> with cultural values in order for us to function
> within it?
Innovation
[Ron]
> I think if we are going to talk Quality we better
> have some idea of what
> it is and by the reckoning we all generally agree
> with Pirsigs description
> In our social group.
> But we're talking about intellect which Pirsig
> define as a level
> And uses the concept of Pre-intellect as a
> cornerstone to his Concept of MoQ.
Ok, but I don't think we all have to have the
same idea. We're not robots. We can be creative,
innovative, and keep up with the changes, thus,
improvise instead of thinking we can pre-plan and have
it all mapped out before we actually do it.
[Ron]
> You can talk DQ/SQ all day but I would point out
> That what more can you say about it
> Once the initial concept is grasped.
> Besides writing Poetry and expressing our
> Experience, which is cool and I love it,
> But I didn't join a poetry forum I joined
> MoQ discuss which discusses MoQ concepts.
> Not only expressing our individual experience.
Are these your concepts or the moq concepts
above?
[Ron]
> I get what you're saying. I guess I'm really
> interested in
> Clarifying the map, so others can find their way
> with more ease.
> Misconceptions can breed all sorts of stumbling
> blocks.
I never said you couldn't draw a map, but a map
of Pennsylvania is not Pennsylvania. Discussing
concepts is fun. I do it. It does depend on your
mood maybe. Your in the mood to discuss moq concepts
and highlight them and clarify them. That's good.
I'm just wondering if you think your come up with the
exact answer to What is intellect/quality? True
story: I heard that the price of artistic lamps (as
opposed to the run of the mill lamp) went down as soon
as Japan went into a recession in the 1990's. A lamp
that was worth ca. $80,000 then is worth $30,000 now.
[Ron]
> We are never going to agree about everything and
> that's
> Part of the beauty of this forum because we are all
> Individual contributors but if we see a flaw in the
> map
> I feel we should endeavor to clarify it.
I agree, and do this often. It is about ridding
what was seen as a limit, but is really a hurdle. I
see this as what Marsha refers to as Patternbusters,
thanks Marsha! I like it!
[Ron]
> There are two MoQ's, the experience of the
individual and the
> cultural Conception. They are not one in the same
and often I
> get the Feeling that it is taken to be so.
We can innovate, and not feel the Art Cops down
my back trying to burn my books and stuff, and thus,
this human quality can flourish more than say during
the 7, 8, or was it 9th century China were the Emperor
purged Buddhism from the country and made the monks
disband from the monasteries to do EVERYDAY WORK.
Admittedly Chan survived this era due to its'
impromptu approach and liking of EVERYDAY WORK (I
capitalized to show how Chan fit so snug in society
that even during these times it was able to do what it
always did - improvise).
We can work through these changes.
woods,
SA
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