gav: preface 'experience' with 'undivided' or 'immediate' and experience and Tao equate.
[Krimel] Is this an attempt to disengage the self or to personalize the Tao? gav:dreams are of mythic import. they speak to us in the archetypes of the 'unconscious'. this we have known for millenia, rediscovered and reformulated elegantly in the last century by jung. jung is very important. we need to understand what dreams are, what archetypes are, what myth is..... [Krimel] I have never thought of Jung as straying far from mainstream academia. He did pioneering work bringing eastern ideas to the west. Jung spoke of archetypes as something like genetically programmed resonances; predispositions to seek an understanding of certain relationships. Myth is archetype overlaid with narrative. These patterns of thinking have a purely biological component. They are our default settings. They in effect act as the first layer of slips in Pirsig's trays. They grow in much the same way. "Before long he noticed certain categories emerging. The earlier slips began to merge about a common topic and later slips about a different topic. When enough slips merged about a single topic so that he got a feeling it would be permanent he took an index card of the same size as the slips, attached a transparent plastic index tab to it, wrote the name of the topic on a little cardboard insert that came with the tab, put it in the tab, and put the index card together with its related topic slips." Lila is mythic narrative giving structure to those "transparent index tabs." Lila herself is an archetypal character: "This sleeping Lila whom he had just met tonight was someone else too. Or not someone else exactly, but someone less specific, less individual. There is Lila, this single private person who slept beside him now, who was born and now lived and tossed in her dreams and will soon enough die and then there is someone else - call her lila - who is immortal, who inhabits Lila for a while and then moves on. The sleeping Lila he had just met tonight. But the waking lila, who never sleeps, had been watching him and he had been watching her for a long time." I think you are inclined to lila (little l) as a immortal being. I see her as an exemplar of a mental category. gav: undivided means no separation twixt observer and observed. let go of your steadfast attachment to a permanent subject! i know it is weird at first but it is only thought,continual thought, that reifies this ghost. there are no fragments in something that is undivided. [Krimel] I recently saw a video with a schizophrenic describing the same phenomenon. She said she thought that the arm of her chair was part of her body and was quite distressed when she tried to move it and it wouldn't move. It is one thing to be connected to and part of the larger world and quite another to think you are it. krimel: > Why does this idea of unity, wholeness and undivided > seem so important to > you? gav: because it is better than SOM; it is pragmatically better, aesthetically better. it accords more fully with experience. it is the key to a new unified earth. [Krimel] Help me out with the aesthetic part. It seem to me to more like Bohr's trade off between clarity and precision on meth. Or the kind of color you get my mixing all the crayons in the box. > [Krimel] > So élan vital is some kind of undetectable energy? gav: no it is detectable. it is the will to life, the creative impulse. it is what separates the animate from the inanimate. we are it. that's how we detect it - within. [Krimel] Can you think of anyone currently studying biology that would support such a view? gav: biological systems are >100% mechanically efficient. mechanical systems are <100% mechanically efficient. biology is anti-entropic. this is discussed well by mae-wan ho, a biologist and physicist, in her book 'the rainbow and the worm'. [Krimel] If biological systems are 100% efficient what is shit? > [Krimel] > Myths are patterns of association. Meaning though is > another interesting > term that seems difficult to attach meaning to. I > would suggest that meaning > contains a purely emotional component. It feels > right and intellect is a > kind of spackling compound we smear on it. gav: emotion is a reaction to phenomena/ideas. a reaction to meaning. [Krimel] James saw emotion as a physiological response to stimulation in the environment. The description or intellectualization of the experience or meaning, came later. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
