gav: the middle way between subject and object is quality/experience/Tao - the dynamic source of both.
[Krimel] While we may apprehend Tao through experience I don't think they are equal to one another. gav: experience is pre-intellectual. experience isn't comprised of anything - it is prior to 'things'. remember dreams are experienced without using the bodily senses. [Krimel] Dreams certainly suggest that our brains are capable of constructing novel experience from recollection. But I would suggest that your use of the term experience in this way is a bit vague. Would you say the colliding billiard balls experience each other? If so, how do subject and object resolve from the experience? [gav] "The average person, while he thinks he is awake, actually is half asleep. By 'half asleep' I mean that his contact with reality is a very partial one; most of what he believes to be reality (outside or inside of himself) is a set of fictions which his mind constructs. He is aware of reality only to the degree to which his social functioning makes it necessary. I believe I see - but I only see words; I believe I feel, but I only think feelings. The cerebrating person is the alienated person." -- Erich Fromm [Krimel] We are frighteningly close to agreement here. This is a point I have made many times. Most of what we do is not conscious and is done without awareness. I would steer clear of Freud's use of the term unconscious. Michael Gazzaniga who has done extensive research on split brained patients uses the term non-conscious, which I think captures the idea much better. [gav] sloughing away all the concepts that get between 'reality' and 'self' is the only way to know what reality is, that is *to experience it*, undivided. this is of course the logic behind any meditative activity. [Krimel] Again I do not think experience works this was and this certainly does not sound like the "experience" you talk about above. "Undivided" occurs not by reverting to some primal form of pre-perceptual sensation but through the integration of the current fragments of sensation with the recollection of past experience. Why does this idea of unity, wholeness and undivided seem so important to you? gav: elan vital is the vital spirit within and essential to all life that wills it onwards into new territory. [Krimel] So élan vital is some kind of undetectable energy? [gav] your car isn't being anti-entropic, it is probably being more highly entropic as more gas would probably be wasted as heat and noise energy. [Krimel] Obviously my car is entropic. My question to you is how are you different? How is any living thing different? Don't living things take in energy, transduce it into different forms and ultimately store it or turn it into heat? [gav] dreams are private myths, myths are public dreams. myth is meaningful. implicit meaning is gnosis - the certain knowledge of experience - eg love isn't true or false it just IS. [Krimel] Myths are patterns of association. Meaning though is another interesting term that seems difficult to attach meaning to. I would suggest that meaning contains a purely emotional component. It feels right and intellect is a kind of spackling compound we smear on it. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
