--- Krimel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > gav: the middle way between subject and object is > quality/experience/Tao - the dynamic source of both. > > [Krimel] > While we may apprehend Tao through experience I > don't think they are equal > to one another.
gav: preface 'experience' with 'undivided' or 'immediate' and experience and Tao equate. > > gav: experience is pre-intellectual. experience > isn't > comprised of anything - it is prior to 'things'. > remember dreams are experienced without using the > bodily senses. > > [Krimel] > Dreams certainly suggest that our brains are capable > of constructing novel > experience from recollection. But I would suggest > that your use of the term > experience in this way is a bit vague. Would you say > the colliding billiard > balls experience each other? If so, how do subject > and object resolve from > the experience? gav:dreams are of mythic import. they speak to us in the archetypes of the 'unconscious'. this we have known for millenia, rediscovered and reformulated elegantly in the last century by jung. jung is very important. we need to understand what dreams are, what archetypes are, what myth is..... my use of experience is not vague at all. dreams are immediate experience. this is not vague. this is beyond doubt. i cannot speak for the billiard balls but i certainly experience their collisions. subject and object are the first split in SOM, the initial retreat from experience. descartes reified the subject and hence the objective world also. the homunculus and the world separated by the armour of the body. it is only upon reflection that subject and object manifest. only through intellect. the ego - the subject - is a convenient fiction. transcending the ego is phase of evolution that humans are undergoing now. what experiences have you had that have been immersive, total, selfless? ...music, dancing, love, sport. we all have had some...the more you have the more reality reveals of herself. > > [gav] > "The average person, while he thinks he is awake, > actually is half asleep. By 'half asleep' I mean > that > his contact with reality is a very partial one; most > of what he believes to be reality (outside or inside > of himself) is a set of fictions which his mind > constructs. He is aware of reality only to the > degree > to which his social functioning makes it necessary. > > I believe I see - but I only see words; I believe I > feel, but I only think feelings. The cerebrating > person is the alienated person." -- Erich Fromm > > [Krimel] > We are frighteningly close to agreement here. This > is a point I have made > many times. Most of what we do is not conscious and > is done without > awareness. I would steer clear of Freud's use of the > term unconscious. > Michael Gazzaniga who has done extensive research on > split brained patients > uses the term non-conscious, which I think captures > the idea much better. > > [gav] > sloughing away all the concepts that get between > 'reality' and 'self' is the only way to know what > reality is, that is *to experience it*, undivided. > this is of course the logic behind any meditative > activity. > > [Krimel] > Again I do not think experience works this was and > this certainly does not > sound like the "experience" you talk about above. > "Undivided" occurs not by > reverting to some primal form of pre-perceptual > sensation but through the > integration of the current fragments of sensation > with the recollection of > past experience. gav: undivided means no separation twixt observer and observed. let go of your steadfast attachment to a permanent subject! i know it is weird at first but it is only thought,continual thought, that reifies this ghost. there are no fragments in something that is undivided. krimel: > Why does this idea of unity, wholeness and undivided > seem so important to > you? gav: because it is better than SOM; it is pragmatically better, aesthetically better. it accords more fully with experience. it is the key to a new unified earth. > > gav: elan vital is the vital spirit within and > essential to all life that wills it onwards into new > territory. > > [Krimel] > So élan vital is some kind of undetectable energy? gav: no it is detectable. it is the will to life, the creative impulse. it is what separates the animate from the inanimate. we are it. that's how we detect it - within. > > [gav] > your car isn't being anti-entropic, it is probably > being more highly entropic as more gas would > probably > be wasted as heat and noise energy. > > [Krimel] > Obviously my car is entropic. My question to you is > how are you different? > How is any living thing different? Don't living > things take in energy, > transduce it into different forms and ultimately > store it or turn it into > heat? gav: biological systems are >100% mechanically efficient. mechanical systems are <100% mechanically efficient. biology is anti-entropic. this is discussed well by mae-wan ho, a biologist and physicist, in her book 'the rainbow and the worm'. > > [gav] > dreams are private myths, myths are public dreams. > myth is meaningful. implicit meaning is gnosis - the > certain knowledge of experience - eg love isn't true > or false it just IS. > > [Krimel] > Myths are patterns of association. Meaning though is > another interesting > term that seems difficult to attach meaning to. I > would suggest that meaning > contains a purely emotional component. It feels > right and intellect is a > kind of spackling compound we smear on it. gav: emotion is a reaction to phenomena/ideas. a reaction to meaning. > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
