Hi DMB Is there a distinction we need here between found and 'drawn' distinctions?
Clearly knowing what is good and not is a distinction. Deciding that there is a distinction between up and down is somewhat 'drawn' (possible but needs to be made to be 'seen'). DM ----- Original Message ----- From: "david buchanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 3:43 AM Subject: Re: [MD] Does Quality really exist? > > Redsky said: > ...In claiming to remove "Quality" from the world, he isn't removing > Quality per se, but rather removing differences between objects. By > removing the distinction between fine art and a blank wall, he isn't > removing a definitive aesthetic judgment, but rather our ability to > perceive a difference between two scenarios. > > dmb says: > As we saw in the quote Bo posted, the thought experiment, removing Quality > to see how the world would be effected, results in the loss of the fine > arts. We'd still be able to distinquish a wall from a painting, but not a > good wall from a bad wall or a good painting from a bad one. In such a > world we'd probably still have walls but the loss of quality would make > the arts into a pointless exercise in changing a thing's shape for no > reason at all. Walls function as a barrier to the outside but art's > function is predicated on a sense of quality such that they couldn't > function without it. Without quality in the world, there'd be no reason > NOT to eat the same dry, tasteless food pellets at every meal - like a > dog. > > Poor dogs. > > Matt replied to Redsky: > ...I think it is important to emphasize it: in Pirsig's philosophy, > Quality is synonymous with the making of distinctions, in any kind of > distinguishing. In other words, the functioning of the "analytic knife" > from the beginning of ZMM is a direct function of there actually existing > Quality. (He brings up this point again in Lila when he talks about > babies and differentiation.) ...Pirsig's just trying to point out how > commonsensical the existence of what he's talking about is. It's a > beginning point. His more controversial points require different > arguments. That argument is a softening up move before the more > interesting stuff about Plato. ...Pirsig's softening up move is to make us > realize that Quality is basically the same thing as differentiation, but > there is more to it. I have a lot of difficulty also with Pirsig's > assertion that we already know what Quality is, but I'm not sure if he > isn't saying that we already know how to identify Quality, we already know > how t > o distinguish higher from lower value because doing so is _the_ basic > feature of living life. > > dmb says: > Quality is synonymous with make distinctions and is basically the same > thing as differentiation? Pirsig says that Quality is ahead of > definitions. That's why, he says, the metaphyics of Quality is a > contradiction in terms. This is the same reason that we already know what > Quality is. These are all just other ways of getting at the HAD experience > as opposed to the KNOWN experience, the precognitive and cognitive, as > I've been saying. The way his writing students "knew" a good essay when > they read one, even if they couldn't say why, illustrates how this works > in everyday experience just as well as the thought experiment. Or the idea > that a guy went mad trying to find a way to define it. That's a pretty > dramatic illustration too. My point, obviously, is that your assertion > (that Quality is equal to distinctions and differentiations) is the > opposite of what Pirsig says about it. > > Thanks. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's > FREE! > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
