Matt, I am not sure who wrote the stuff attributed to me but it wasn't me. I have never read 1984 or Brave New World.
I am not a big fan of rain either. We used to make sure there was a druid in our groups. They have a spell than can make it stop. As for fictional philosophy though, Camus and Nietzsche both wrote philosophical fiction and many fiction writers have deal with philosophical themes. I myself am a fictional character so I really don't see what the problem is with that. I would guess even the chair of philosophy at Harvard has read a bit of fiction from time to time. Krimel -----Original Message----- From: Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 1:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MD] Does Quality exist? [Heather] I understand what your saying here Matt. Three questions. Have you read, 'The Guidebook to ZMM'? It is more intellectual in nature. Secondly, ZMM autobiographical was not fictional, and I would say, it was the ground in which the more strictly intellectual aspects of ZMM manifested itself from. So, my second sincere question is, what else do you do besides strictly intellectual pursuits? You don't overlook them, or do you? [Matt] First, no, I have not read the guidebook. Is it in libraries, or where do I find it? Right, ZMM was autobiographical, not purely fictional. My point was that it wasn't in essay form, and therefore will have difficulty being critiqued by notable (please don't ask me to define notable; I can't) scholars of the day. No, I am not "the purely philosophical reader." It seems this was something Krimel was questioning, too. I enjoy jazz bass, writing fiction/poetry, reading literature, and the cinema (especially foreign films). I also (cliche as I am) like the rain, among many other things. Many of these things often take up more of my attention than philosophy. But, however, if the chair of the philosophy department at a top university (such as Harvard, etc.) were reading ZMM or Lila, he would have difficulty evaluating Pirsig's ideas from a purely philosophical standpoint because of the way Pirsig wrote it. Not that Pirsig should have put it in essay form (I loved ZMM), but that if he was specifically trying to create a breakthrough in philosophy, he likely would have had a better chance with a few essays rather than a few novels. [Platt] How did I "butcher" his quote? He is merely citing the difference, as Pirsig does, between a menu and food. I think I understand what you mean, but disagree with it as far as it was trying to justify Pirsig in putting his philosopihcal work in fiction/autobiographies rather than essays. [Krimel] Quality is not something you have to struggle to see. It's right in front of your face all the time. Quality is existence, experience, reality. Right---I should have said Pirsig's idea of Quality rather than Quality itself. I think I am right in saying that Pirsig's views on Quality at least develop (if change is too harsh a word) throughout the book. [Krimel] I don't know what "readers" you have in mind other than yourself. Nor do I know who you mean by the "philosophical community," as if there is some sort of exclusive club for those interested in ideas. As for having his philosophy in the form you prefer, I presume you are familiar with his SODV paper. As for readers, I meant the purely philosophical readers and wasn't referring to myself. When or if philosophy experts (a category from which I am exempt) attempt to understand Pirsig and evaluate his ideas, they will have difficulty because of the novel nature of Pirsig's writings. Admittantly I used a bad term in "philosophical community". I meant the circle of philosophy scholars, professors, and experts that collectively argue about these things for a living. The kind of people you can cite in a college research paper, etc. I can't remember if I read his SODV paper; is that the one on the moq.org website that Pirsig gave at a philosophy conference somewhere (Liverpool?)? If so, I glanced over it; I have a friend that read it. No, you're problably talking about something else. How can I access this paper? It could be useful. As for being the form I prefer, I am not sure. Going back, I still would have kept ZMM and Lila fictional (great writing). But philosophically, I may prefer the paper. [Krimel] To you, perhaps, but not to me. I thoroughly enjoyed "Brave New World" and "1984." Yes, I enjoyed both of them too. Huxley has a wonderful subtle prose, while Orwell is more systematic (making 1984 like a literary version of Citizen Kane) On 12/6/07, Heather Perella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > [Matt] > > Not to mention the irrelevant > > autobiographical story Pirsig has us > > jump in and out of. The problem with Pirsig not > > writing in essay from is not > > necessarily the accuracy of his ideas but the fact > > that very few > > philosophical expert will want to have to dig > > through the fiction and > > thought process to find out what Pirsig is really > > saying; if Pirsig doesn't > > bother putting his ideas in essay form, they > > shouldn't bother listening to > > him. Those are the main problems with fictional > > novels as a way to present > > philosophical ideas to a philosophical community. > > I'm not saying that all > > philosophy is in essay form, I'm saying all current > > philosophy should be in > > essay form for the reader's sake. At the moment, I > > won't mention the dronish > > lack of quality in the moq.org essays (I even saw an > > essay with a "Works > > Sited" page). Hilarious. > > While alternate forms of philosophical expression > > may be cute, in this case, > > Pirsig's fiction is an annoyance to the purely > > philosophical reader. > > > > > > I understand what your saying here Matt. Three > questions. Have you read, 'The Guidebook to ZMM'? It > is more intellectual in nature. > Secondly, ZMM autobiographical was not fictional, > and I would say, it was the ground in which the more > strictly intellectual aspects of ZMM manifested itself > from. So, my second sincere question is, what else do > you do besides strictly intellectual pursuits? You > don't overlook them, or do you? > > > SA > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > -- "The only thing that separates us from the animals is...well, the truth is nothing separates us from the animals." Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
