> [SA previously]
> "Like Confucianism, Daoism was not solely a
> philosophical system. In an interesting historical
> accident, by the early third century B.C.E, perhaps
> because the Daodejing had been drafted into the
> service of Legalist thinkers arguing against the
> Confucian model of statecraft, Laozi came to be
> allied with Huangdi, the Yellow Emperor, who was
said to
> have brought humankind not only military, magical,
and
> medical arts, but also statecraft modeled on
> objective patterns in nature, not subjective
morality. Thus,
> in spite of the Zhuangzi's explicit denunciation of
the
> Yellow Emperor, late-Han Daoism came to be
> associated with medicines, magic, spirit travel, and
alchemy -
> an association that persisted in and became a
driving
> force of the religious dimension of Daoism that
> developed from the second century C.E. onward."
> You see Krimel, if I'm not correct fill me in,
> but I see you as Zhuangzi in this instance. Your
> trying to uphold the Daoist tradition that Zhuangzi
> and Laozi saw. You might disagree with Laozi and/or
> Zhuangzi on certain issues, I don't know, but in
> this instance above Zhuangzi (an originator of
Daoism)
> saw the legist and the Yellow Emperor as taking
Daoism
> somewhere Zhuangzi disagreed with. I don't know all
> the details on this issue, but it would seem
> Zhuangzi pointing at the daodejing saying to the
Yellow
> Emperor something along the lines of this helps
relate
> daoism, and the religious connotation that became
associated
> with daoism is something Zhuangzi was explicitly
> against (again, there may be certain aspects of this
> religious daoism that holds some goodness, I'm not
> sure, but Zhuangzi was getting at something here).
> [Krimel]
> I am not very familiar with Taoist history and your
> use of the new fangled spellings doesn't help
Yes, I noticed your spelling of Taoist, Chuang
Tzu and Lao Tzu. The Eastern Philosophy and Religion
professor that I was a student under used these
spellings: Daoist, Zhuangzi, and Lao zi, also,
Daodejing (which I believe you may know as Tao te(?)
and for jing I don't know. The spellings I use are
also in the recent books I on the topic. My professor
told me (he was a student of Roger Ames) he uses these
spellings due to their correspondence with the actual
sounding of the words in Chinese. In Chinese Taoism
would sound like Daoism, etc... I also spell these
words this way just cause I'm used to spelling them
this way and don't know the other spellings that much
though I have seen Daoism spelled as Taoism.
[Krimel]
>I assume you are talking
> about Chuang Tzu and Lao
> Tzu. Chuang Tzu is usually described as Lao Tzu's
> St. Paul. In any case the
> conflict you refer to is a common one so I am not
> surprised to hear that it
> afflicted the Taoists. Pirsig mentions it in the
> conflict of the priests and
> the Brujo. I have brought it up several times in the
> conflict between Jesus
> and the Scribes. It si a running theme in the Old
> and New Testaments as the
> rabbis and prophets of the northern kingdom fought
> it out with the priestly
> class who claimed a monopoly on religious practices.
> The conflict between
> the law written on paper and the law written on the
> heart is a common one it
> would seem.
Yes, though I'm not very familiar with the
conflict between the Yellow Emperor and Zhuangzi, it
would seem their conflict did fall somewhere along
these lines between the written law and the law in
ones heart. This is why I'm fond of dynamic quality.
It is embedded on each level or any static pattern
leaving its' wildness, its' innocence, its' freedom,
and integrity intact.
> [SA]
> These "what if" games, are these projections,
> rationals that help encourage certain perspectives,
> but are not to be taken too literal?
> [Krimel]
> Indeed! The search for truth is in some sense the
> quest for better
> metaphors.
Yes, and I see this as the pebble that starts with
you stepping in some weeks ago and declaring that the
levels can be more of a hang-up if we forget its'
metaphorical truth, and begin to think the levels are
somekind of absolute truth that can be discovered
somewhere 'out there'. That's why I hang on to dq
embedded in static patterns and sometimes mention that
dq=sq. Each hold their own integrity and definition,
but each also stand together intermixing depending on
the inclination and context one desires to
demonstrate.
thanks.
SA
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