Hi all, Pirsig's MoQ has the secondary split of static quality into mind and matter. A later split of Pirsig's was to divide mind into intellectual and social ideas. One of those intellectual ideas was the evil and mighty SOM. SOM is concerned with the split of reality into mind and matter. Contradiction: mind and matter is the result of Pirsig's beautiful secondary split in the MoQ.
I think this is the platypus Bo is referring to. No answer from Steve yet. SA seems to have been irritated like hearing someone shouting 'platypus' but he can't see it. Just to play devil's advocate and as a rival solution to Bo's: perhaps Pirsig's primary split of reality should have been into Dynamic Quality and SOM!! -Peter On 21/12/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Peter, Krimel, Steve and Group > > 20 December > > Peter opened the exchange about Artificial Intelligence and his > purpose was to show (I repeat) ...that subject/object logic is the > basis of intellect > > > [Peter] > > I listened to a tape of 'The Language Instinct' by Steven Pinker the > > other day. One section brought home to me that subject/object logic is > > the basis of the intellect. Pinker shows how a dumb machine can > > perform logical deductions; that given two sentences: 'Socrates is a > > man' and 'All men are mortal' a mechanical apparatus can move the words > > around to produce: 'Therefore Socrates is mortal'. That apparatus can > > always make correct logical deductions given two sentences in the > > appropriate form. > > I see his reasoning as if machines can become logical, then > intelligence is NOT the definition of the 4th. LEVEL. Only the > subject/object definition is left. > > This I naturally agree with, but just wonder how intelligence > EVER emerged as the criterion of intellect, at least I have harped > on the intelligence/intellect fallacy for years. IMO intelligence is > no level in the MOQ, but a biological pattern that reached a peak > with the big-brained primate called Homo Sapiens. This pattern > the social and intellectual level - in turn - exploited for own > purpose (as is all levels' wont). > > Krimel: > > The chief argument against machines being humanlike in the face of > > this, would be that they do not have human emotional responses. Since > > emotional responses are the products of evolution on a vast time scale > > and are functions that preserve the lives of organic beings it is > > questionable how valuable they might be to a machine intelligence. > > Good point Krimel. Intellect (as SOM) can't make sense of AI, its > criterion for intelligence is for computers to wake up "to > consciousness" and think or say "Hey, I am a computer". And > further realize that they have been shamelessly abused by > humans, FEEL great anger and "take control". > > This will not happen because computers are just one biological > pattern copied, they don't have the other means to rise to the > social level - the level of emotions - and absolutely not to the > intellectual level (which isn't = consciousness but the level where > consciousness is seen as awareness of Reality) It sounds > mysterious, but is very simple. > > Steve: > > I don't see how this is an example that all intellect is subject > > object thinking. Where are the subjects and objects in this? I see > > this as an example that shows that not all thinking is S/O based. > > Steve have not understood Peters starting point and seems to > expect AI to be "Artificial Intellect" and expect S/O patterns to > emerge. > > Steve: > > Artificial intelligence is a Platypus in SOM because we have an > > object (the computer) thinking while in SOM only subjects think. > > AI may be a platypus in SOM, but Natural Intelligence is a > platypus in "orthodox" MOQ. > > > MOQ can resolve this problem. > > Tell us! > > Bo > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
