fernando: Damn you, fool! Go to hell! You corrupted human bei
SA: Wow! Where did this all come from? Did I miss something? SA > > > ----- Mensagem de [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------- > Data: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:12:22 +0530 > De: Akshay Peshwe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Endereço para Resposta (Reply-To): > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Assunto: Re: [MD] Where was Quality before Pirsig? > Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > How can you say it does not fit into the MoQ? > Gravity is the intellectual > > observation of an inorganic pattern. Although we > have no proof of it, > > hypothetically we admit that this inorganic > pattern exists even when you are > > not observing it. Even the truth of the law of > gravity is not justified > > completely, because we cannot be sure whether the > law is really > > being executed all the time or only when we > observe events relating to > > gravity. > > > > On 08/01/2008, Akshay Peshwe > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >> By gravity we either mean the supposed > objectively existing (independent > >> of our observations, &c.) law or our > understanding of it. The law, whose > >> objectivity is hypothetical/based on inference, > therefore did exist before > >> our understanding of it. Within the whole logical > system that we call > >> gravity, it is indeed true that gravity existed > before our knowledge of it, > >> because the fundamental assumption of science is > that there is a reality > >> independent of our observations. This has > parallels to the famous question: > >> does the tree exist when nobody is looking at it? > >> > >> > >> On 08/01/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > > >> > Steve, Moqtalk. > >> > > >> > 7 Jan. u wrote: (thanks for you well-edited > posts) > >> > > >> > Dan had written: > >> > > >>>> As you know, I don't subscribe to your > theory that the MOQ is a > >> > > >>>> "meta-level." The MOQ is Robert Pirsig's > idea and as such is a > >> > > >>>> collection of intellectual patterns of > value. > >> > > >> > Peter: > >> > > >> I think 'meta-level' is appropriate > because openness to the > >> > > >> dynamic is > >> > > >> like seeing the whole context (the actual > levels) by stepping > >> > > >> beyond the limits of the 4th level, the > limitations of SOM. Besides > >> > > >> MoQ is metaphysics! > >> > > >> > Bo: > >> > > > Right, the MOQ is a metaphysics, exactly > what I have struggled > >> > > > to express. Besides the 4th. level is > static and can't contain the > >> > > > very DQ/SQ system... > >> > > >> > Steve: > >> > > The intellectual level doesn't hope to > contain "the very DQ/sq > >> > > system." DQ is obviously not contained in a > static level. The 4th > >> > > level contains descriptions of DQ. The MOQ > isn't reality itself, it > >> > > is words about reality. You are confusing the > menu and the food. > >> > > >> > Bo now: > >> > You say that the intellectual level contains > descriptions of DQ > >> > (which it doesn't, it says it's indefinable) > but as the MOQ is an > >> > intellectual pattern (by your logic) even DQ is > a mere description. > >> > - for where was Quality before Pirsig? I invoke > ZAMM (page 30) > >> > and replace Newton with Pirsig, Gravity with > Quality, John > >> > Sutherland with Steve Peterson, science with > metaphysics and > >> > the narrator with Bo Skutvik. > >> > > >> > So Bo goes on. "For example, it seems > completely > >> > natural to presume that Quality existed > before Robert > >> > Pirsig. It would sound nutty to think that > until the twentieth > >> > century there was no Quality." > >> > > >> > (Steve) "Of course". > >> > > >> > "So when did this Quality start? Has it > always existed?'' > >> > > >> > Steve Peterson is frowning, wondering what > Bo is driving > >> > at. > >> > > >> > Bo says "Is the notion that before the > beginning of the > >> > earth, before the sun and the stars were > formed, before > >> > the primal generation of anything, the > Quality existed?". > >> > > >> > (Steve) "Sure" > >> > > >> > Bo continues: "Sitting there, having no mass > of its own, > >> > no energy of its own, not in anyone's mind > because there > >> > wasn't anyone, not in space because there > was no space > >> > either, not anywhere...this Quality still > existed?" > >> > > >> > Now Steve seems not so sure. > >> > > >> > "If that Quality existed" Bo says "..I > honestly don't know > >> > what a thing has to do to be nonexistent. It > seems to me > >> > that Quality has passed every test of > nonexistence there > >> > is. You cannot think of a single attribute > of nonexistence > >> > that that Quality didn't have. Or a single > metaphysical > >> > attribute of existence Quality did have. And > yet it is still > >> > 'common sense' to believe that Quality > existed." > >> > > >> > I'm not mocking Pirsig, it's just his splendid > logic backfires. It's no > >> > news that great scientific theories > re-construct reality, and like a > >> > crystallization spreads to include the past. A > metaphysical > >> > upheaval even more because the world has not > experienced one > >> > since SOM and it was gradual. Phaedrus of ZAMM > tries correctly > >> > to point this out and show that there were > realities before the > >> > scientific revolution - the levels below the > 4th. - but Pirsig of LILA > >> > forgets this and violates his own insight by > making the MOQ a > >> > mere description of a Quality reality that has > existed from the > >> > beginning of time. > >> > > >> > Think for a change. > >> > > >> > Bo > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> > Archives: > >> > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > >> > > >> > >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! 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