Hi Steve, I would better have asked 'are there no possibilities of being beyond social and intellectual constraints'.
Most Western people live in their heads! The typical intellectual when going about their work has a locus of awareness in the forehead. I'd suggest that's a characteristic of subject/object logic type thinking. Push it too far and you get a headache. To better use intellect we have to practice remembering the rest of the body while we work. MoQ, SOM and Tao Te Ching are all intellectual patterns, but not of equal value; MoQ and Tao Te Ching suggest something much more. -Peter On 07/01/2008, Steven Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hi Peter: > > Steve: > > > >> I can't think of what meaning a meta-level of the MOQ would have while > >> thinking of the levels as types of patterns of value. > >> > > Peter: > >So Steve are you saying that there are no possibilities for thinking > outside > >of social and intellectual constraints? > > Steve: > Yes. That doesn't mean that all experince is limited to inorganic, > biological, social, and intellectual types. There is also dynamci experience > that is unpatterned. Talking about such experience is done within the > confined of socially maintained symbols manipulatied intellectually. > > Thought outside intellect is impossible because thought and intellect are > the same think. Pirsig says that intellect is simply thinking. > > > Peter: > >Each level developed out of the > >limitations of the immediate supporting level. There must have been a > stage > >when the evolution of the intellectual level was in it's infancy. If SOM > is > >the characteristic of intellectual thought is there not possible a kind > of > >thought that operates from a better perspective? > > Steve: > > There are certainly better and worse perspectives, but thought is still > thought. Thought doesn't turn into something else if it's based on a better > prespective. > > I often worry about what people mean when they talk about "levels" in the > MOQ. It is a good word to use to highlight the establishment of an > evolutionary hierachy of patterns of value. But these levels aren't to be > thought of as levels of personal evolution as some seem to use them. As such > they would be pretty useless since just about everybody (with the exception > of brain damaged and severly mentally retarded people) participates in > intelletcual patterns and thus "reaches the intellectual level." > > As stages of development or levels of awareness they are passed through > very quickly. Piaget's sensory motor stage might correspond well with > inorganic and biological awareness alone. But very soon the child begins to > copy facial expressions and is on his way to participating in social > patterns. Certainly by three years old, children are able to provide > rationales for their behavior and are thus participating in intellectual > patterns. So stages of development of levels of awareness don't seem to me > to be a very useful understanding of the levels. > > As types of people, it may be useful to talk about whether a person is > relatively more domninated by biological, social, or intellectual patterns > of value as we see in the characters of Lila, Rigel, and Phaedrus. But when > you are talking about the MOQ as a meta-level, we need to think about what > the levels fundamentally are which is types of patterns of value. > > I suspect in your "meta-level" of the MOQ you may intend for it to be a > level of awareness above intellectual awareness, and I think there may be > something to that line of thought. But as a type of pattern of value, to me > it doesn't make sense to think of the MOQ as anything but an intellectual > pattern of value. > > Reagrds, > Steve > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
