i think we need to use a different word. 'faith' doesn't fit the bill. 'faith' is experiential knowledge. 'belief' gets closer to what you are talking about - every belief contains a lie.
--- david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > dmb said: > faith ..is a belief held outside of intellectual > standards in general. > > gav replied: > i disagree. faith is a knowledge complementary and > ultimately inclusive of intellectual truth. the > faith/science schism is only apparent because > arguments on both sides are usually naive and > inaccurate. > > dmb says: > I think the issue of faith is about the differences > between social level values and intellectual values. > But I think you are on a slightly different topic > here, a more subtle one about the way scientific > materialism and traditional empiricism ignores or > even denies the validity of anything that might be > called "spiritual". For example,... > > gav said: > faith is a knowledge born of transcendent > experience. the intellect can only reflect upon this > experience. the experience itself, the nature of the > experience is the empirical 'data'. ...you can't > kick faith out of an essentially mystical > metaphysics. > > dmb says: > I think it's like Steve said, "The mystic doesn't > say, "accept what I am saying on faith." She says, > "see for yourself". Joseph Campbell used to say he > didn't need faith because he has experience. This is > not the sort of thing a positivist or objectivist > would accept as empirical data, but a radical > empiricist certainly would. And even if you were > debating a positivist SOMer of the worst kind, he'd > still have to admit that a belief in the existence > of mystical experience is based on some kind of > basis in reason and experience. At that point it's a > matter of rival interpretations of the data, not a > contest between faith and reason. > > As I see it, the problem of "faith" is not an > academic issue about the nature of truth and reality > so much as a political, social, cultural problem. I > think Sam Harris holds a very Pirsigian view and his > quest for the end of faith is basically just a > specific way to assert intellectual values over > social level values. He's saying that we ought not > accept beliefs on the basis of tradition or > authority but on the basis of reason and evidence. > And unlike the other atheists writing books these > says - Dennett, Hitchens, etc. - Harris goes out of > his way to say that he's not excluding meditation or > mysticism. He realizes these are actual experiences > and need not understood as supernatural. If I recall > rightly, he practices meditation himself. He's also > a brain scientist, but I think the issue for him and > me and probably Pirsig too is practical, political, > and cultural. I think its based on a desire for > betterness in the ordinary world. > > One of my favorite sections of Lila is around > chapter 22, where it describes the 20th century as a > political "hurricane", a giant storm caused by the > conflict between social and intellectual values. We > get a ton of historical examples from the Victorians > to Hitler and it goes along way toward explaining > what these values are and why they conflict. I > learned some interesting things about social values > from Nietzsche and Marx last semester. Marx > especially. He describes how the whole cultural acts > to legitimize the status quo. For him, everything > followed from the modes of production and even, or > rather especially, the most cosmic and metaphysical > beliefs were aimed at supporting the arrangement of > society. The creation myth of the West, for example, > construes agriculture as god's favorite. The Cain > and Able story de-legitimizes the hunter's mode of > production in favor of settled farmers. And guess > what sort of development was going on when this > story was first told? And notice how Adam and Eve > are prohibited from enjoying the fruits of knowledge > and are condemned to a lifetime of labor for the sin > of wanting that fruit. This legitimizes slavery, > misogyny and anti-intellectualism. We still hear the > echo of this in today's attitudes. Big time. This is > where social level values come from and lots of them > can now be seen as wildly immoral. I mean, its not > just about who's correct and that's why its a moral > issue. When we weigh social level values against > human rights or freedom of speech, for example, we > see how ugly they can be. There are social level > morals that prohibit theft, murder and adultery. The > MOQ's idea of social level values as the tamer of > biological forces points at those codes. But we > don't accept them on the basis of authority or faith > such much as the list of reasonable justifications. > But farmers are not more divine than hunters and the > story of Eve's sin has been used to justify bullshit > in too many ways to count. Even now there is an > anti-feminist backlash and at least one of the > Republican frontrunners thinks it makes more sense > to make the constitution conform to the bible rather > than the other way around. The whole culture (such > as it is) in the USA is still storming over these > rival sets of values. The negative consequences are > enormous. So I see the problem of "faith" in that > context. I'm talking about beliefs based on nothing > more than tradition and authority and the > consequences that follow from holding those beliefs. > Truth is a species of the good. And faith is a > species of the bad, I guess. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant > messaging. You IM, we give. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
