Steven/David/Platt - responses tomorrow - too much to do today. mm
> -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David M > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 1:12 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [MD] The End of Faith > > > Hi Margaret > > I guess that doctors dealin SQ, and the SQ, > the usual order of things, does not always hold, > as we live in a dynamic world where disorder > outweighs the order.It would be very dull otherwise, > and probably not evolving too much either. > > David M > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Margaret Warren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:29 PM > Subject: Re: [MD] The End of Faith > > > > by the way - I thought perhaps some might take issue > > with the fact that I said 'I've seen faith heal people'. > > I guess what I mean by that - I believe there is > > some science even - that shows that the state > > that your brain is in - positive/not stressed, etc. > > has a lot to do with how well you will digest your > > food, deal with headaches, lower heart rate and so on. > > If faith makes people feel better they are better able > > to recover from even serious illnesses. > > > > There are so called 'miracles' that happen and people > > don’t understand how they happened. > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Margaret > >> Warren > >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 8:50 AM > >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Subject: Re: [MD] The End of Faith > >> > >> > >> > dmb says: > >> > I don't understand why you can't just show them the evidence for > >> > electrons. Search the web and print out a few things. I've never > >> > tried myself but I'd bet you could do it in less than an hour. > >> > > >> > >> ha ha - "I've never tried it myself" - I think you should > >> try it david - > >> arguing with a pig is far simpler. > >> > >> not a gung ho zealot - how > >> about just your average everyday Southern > >> Baptist with a college education > >> who goes to Church on Sunday - > >> - the argument quickly goes > >> from "but the Bible is the word of god" > >> and then you try to point out that the > >> bible was written by men who left out > >> books and rewrote it the way they needed to > >> for political purposes and then they say > >> 'but it's still the word of god - if it's the > >> way it is right now, it's because that is the > >> way god wanted it' > >> and then if you start to argue about the fact > >> that there isn't a God - just because you > >> can't see him/it prove it with electron theory > >> and so on - they just laugh at you - they say > >> that's just science and science doesn't know > >> everything - which it doesn't. > >> > >> but even if you were to try it - it is still > >> everyone's choice what to believe in. > >> > >> I've seen faith heal people and I've seen > >> just the idea that there might be a god > >> do just as many wonderful things for people. > >> My grandmother spent every day working > >> inside of a church having mother's morning > >> out for free for moms to leave their children under > >> 5 so they could go shopping and not > >> pull their hair out. My grandmother > >> called a list of people every day who were > >> shut in's and couldn't get out of the house. > >> She called just to chat with them and see that > >> they were alright and show them that someone > >> was thinking about them. > >> I never heard her preach about god to any of these > >> people even though it was all done through the > >> methodist church. > >> > >> I have to say I think she did a lot better for > >> people than you will do showing them that > >> there isn't a god and they have to think for themselves - > >> which will more than likely fill them with > >> fear and anxiety - because for a lot of people - > >> not having something to believe in is very > >> disconcerting. > >> > >> How many people have you called and shared love > >> with this week? > >> > >> It is far more of a challenge to look inside > >> yourself and see what it is that makes you > >> think that you know better than all of these > >> other people what is best for them. > >> > >> everyone is entitled to their own experience > >> and everyone is moving toward their > >> perceptions of quality at their own rate - > >> if you are buddhist, you believe they > >> have more than one lifetime to come back > >> and do it again...that's a much > >> calmer way to think of it - and the > >> absolute best thing you can do while > >> you are here is offer compassion to those > >> around you. > >> > >> I agree that what Henry Fonday subjected > >> his children to, seems barbaric and > >> absurd - BUT I also think that there are plenty > >> of MD's out there (the new priests) who > >> (under the guise of their science and the > >> medical party line) are doling out plenty > >> of prescriptions for useless products - > >> (were several million people all > >> Prozac deficient all this time?) > >> > >> We're sold thousands of > >> prescriptions a day by a medical culture > >> that's telling us we can eat whatever we > >> want and just take lots of pills for the > >> symptoms. Even high blood pressure, cholestorol - > >> and scientists who look at how much of our ill health > >> is about being exposed to pesticides and > >> plastics are poo pooed as snake oil > >> salesmen. > >> > >> This is pretty absurd as well. > >> > >> - trying to convince someone else why they > >> should not buy into organized religion is > >> just as static but even more small minded. > >> > >> waste of time. > >> > >> > >> look at what SA has been dealing with - trying > >> to convince young women that not to want to > >> live a drug filled life of violence. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Ron Kulp > >> > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 8:14 AM > >> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > Subject: Re: [MD] The End of Faith > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Ron said: > >> > ...its interpretation of data or interpretation of experience > >> > that's key. One person's miracle is another's lite lunch. If > >> > evidence is the only qualifier between faith and reason who's > >> > to say whose interpretation trumps if the data is the same > >> > but the explanation varies? > >> > > >> > dmb says: > >> > Well, that's just it. That's the kind of debate worth having, > >> > one that might lead to some good. When both sides are working > >> > with reason and evidence, nobody really looses. The end of > >> > faith means the beginning of a philosophical conversation. > >> > And when both sides have the data on their side equally the > >> > aesthetic considerations, further explorations and creativity > >> > come into play. This is the desired end in the battle against > >> > faith. This is about the evolutionary freedom of the > >> intellect, see?. > >> > > >> > Ron : > >> > > >> > I see where you are coming from. > >> > > >> > dmb says: > >> > I don't understand why you can't just show them the evidence > >> > for electrons. Search the web and print out a few things. > >> > I've never tried myself but I'd bet you could do it in less > >> > than an hour. > >> > > >> > Ron: > >> > Well this was just a for instance but it is still considered > >> > Electron theory by science. I can't remember where the quote > >> > Came from but it goes like this: "It is not important that > >> > these findings are true what is Important is that the methods > >> > for prediction correspond With observable phenomena." > >> > > >> > > >> > dmb says: > >> > The other day I heard Peter Fonda talking about his > >> > childhood. Apparently, Henry Fonda was a christian scientist. > >> > When Peter, Jane and the other kids got sick he not only > >> > refused to give them any medicine, he made them believe that > >> > their suffering was caused by their own spiritual > >> > shortcomings. He did this to children, to his own children! > >> > That's cruel and immoral. That's child abuse and it is very > >> > far from reasonable, let alone "air tight". It's probably > >> > safe to say that this theology has killed a few people and > >> > some of them were probably kids too young to fight back. As > >> > Christopher Hitchens says, religion poisons everything. Not > >> > least of all, families. > >> > > >> > Ron: > >> > I agree, I was saying that Christian Science has a lot of > >> > experience Defending their beliefs, their argument, from > >> > their own perspective Is solid because they use just enough > >> > philosophy to justify Their stand. I'm just playing devils > >> > advocate here, I am on Your side of the discussion. These > >> > folks are dug in. Convincing them of their own disillusion is > >> > a tough nut. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________ > >> > Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! > >> > http://biggestloser.msn.com/ Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> > Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> > Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > >> > > >> > No virus found in this incoming message. > >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.10/1241 - Release > >> > Date: 1/24/2008 9:58 AM > >> > > >> > > >> > >> No virus found in this outgoing message. > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1243 - Release > >> Date: 1/25/2008 > >> 11:24 AM > >> > >> > >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1243 - Release > >> Date: 1/25/2008 11:24 AM > >> > >> > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1243 - Release Date: > > 1/25/2008 > > 11:24 AM > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.12/1245 - Release > Date: 1/26/2008 3:45 PM > > No virus found in this outgoing message. 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