Hi Margaret I guess that doctors dealin SQ, and the SQ, the usual order of things, does not always hold, as we live in a dynamic world where disorder outweighs the order.It would be very dull otherwise, and probably not evolving too much either.
David M ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Warren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [MD] The End of Faith > by the way - I thought perhaps some might take issue > with the fact that I said 'I've seen faith heal people'. > I guess what I mean by that - I believe there is > some science even - that shows that the state > that your brain is in - positive/not stressed, etc. > has a lot to do with how well you will digest your > food, deal with headaches, lower heart rate and so on. > If faith makes people feel better they are better able > to recover from even serious illnesses. > > There are so called 'miracles' that happen and people > don’t understand how they happened. > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >> Margaret Warren >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 8:50 AM >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Subject: Re: [MD] The End of Faith >> >> >> > dmb says: >> > I don't understand why you can't just show them the evidence >> > for electrons. Search the web and print out a few things. >> > I've never tried myself but I'd bet you could do it in less >> > than an hour. >> > >> >> ha ha - "I've never tried it myself" - I think you should >> try it david - >> arguing with a pig is far simpler. >> >> not a gung ho zealot - how >> about just your average everyday Southern >> Baptist with a college education >> who goes to Church on Sunday - >> - the argument quickly goes >> from "but the Bible is the word of god" >> and then you try to point out that the >> bible was written by men who left out >> books and rewrote it the way they needed to >> for political purposes and then they say >> 'but it's still the word of god - if it's the >> way it is right now, it's because that is the >> way god wanted it' >> and then if you start to argue about the fact >> that there isn't a God - just because you >> can't see him/it prove it with electron theory >> and so on - they just laugh at you - they say >> that's just science and science doesn't know >> everything - which it doesn't. >> >> but even if you were to try it - it is still >> everyone's choice what to believe in. >> >> I've seen faith heal people and I've seen >> just the idea that there might be a god >> do just as many wonderful things for people. >> My grandmother spent every day working >> inside of a church having mother's morning >> out for free for moms to leave their children under >> 5 so they could go shopping and not >> pull their hair out. My grandmother >> called a list of people every day who were >> shut in's and couldn't get out of the house. >> She called just to chat with them and see that >> they were alright and show them that someone >> was thinking about them. >> I never heard her preach about god to any of these >> people even though it was all done through the >> methodist church. >> >> I have to say I think she did a lot better for >> people than you will do showing them that >> there isn't a god and they have to think for themselves - >> which will more than likely fill them with >> fear and anxiety - because for a lot of people - >> not having something to believe in is very >> disconcerting. >> >> How many people have you called and shared love >> with this week? >> >> It is far more of a challenge to look inside >> yourself and see what it is that makes you >> think that you know better than all of these >> other people what is best for them. >> >> everyone is entitled to their own experience >> and everyone is moving toward their >> perceptions of quality at their own rate - >> if you are buddhist, you believe they >> have more than one lifetime to come back >> and do it again...that's a much >> calmer way to think of it - and the >> absolute best thing you can do while >> you are here is offer compassion to those >> around you. >> >> I agree that what Henry Fonday subjected >> his children to, seems barbaric and >> absurd - BUT I also think that there are plenty >> of MD's out there (the new priests) who >> (under the guise of their science and the >> medical party line) are doling out plenty >> of prescriptions for useless products - >> (were several million people all >> Prozac deficient all this time?) >> >> We're sold thousands of >> prescriptions a day by a medical culture >> that's telling us we can eat whatever we >> want and just take lots of pills for the >> symptoms. Even high blood pressure, cholestorol - >> and scientists who look at how much of our ill health >> is about being exposed to pesticides and >> plastics are poo pooed as snake oil >> salesmen. >> >> This is pretty absurd as well. >> >> - trying to convince someone else why they >> should not buy into organized religion is >> just as static but even more small minded. >> >> waste of time. >> >> >> look at what SA has been dealing with - trying >> to convince young women that not to want to >> live a drug filled life of violence. >> >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Kulp >> > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 8:14 AM >> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > Subject: Re: [MD] The End of Faith >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Ron said: >> > ...its interpretation of data or interpretation of experience >> > that's key. One person's miracle is another's lite lunch. If >> > evidence is the only qualifier between faith and reason who's >> > to say whose interpretation trumps if the data is the same >> > but the explanation varies? >> > >> > dmb says: >> > Well, that's just it. That's the kind of debate worth having, >> > one that might lead to some good. When both sides are working >> > with reason and evidence, nobody really looses. The end of >> > faith means the beginning of a philosophical conversation. >> > And when both sides have the data on their side equally the >> > aesthetic considerations, further explorations and creativity >> > come into play. This is the desired end in the battle against >> > faith. This is about the evolutionary freedom of the >> intellect, see?. >> > >> > Ron : >> > >> > I see where you are coming from. >> > >> > dmb says: >> > I don't understand why you can't just show them the evidence >> > for electrons. Search the web and print out a few things. >> > I've never tried myself but I'd bet you could do it in less >> > than an hour. >> > >> > Ron: >> > Well this was just a for instance but it is still considered >> > Electron theory by science. I can't remember where the quote >> > Came from but it goes like this: "It is not important that >> > these findings are true what is Important is that the methods >> > for prediction correspond With observable phenomena." >> > >> > >> > dmb says: >> > The other day I heard Peter Fonda talking about his >> > childhood. Apparently, Henry Fonda was a christian scientist. >> > When Peter, Jane and the other kids got sick he not only >> > refused to give them any medicine, he made them believe that >> > their suffering was caused by their own spiritual >> > shortcomings. He did this to children, to his own children! >> > That's cruel and immoral. That's child abuse and it is very >> > far from reasonable, let alone "air tight". It's probably >> > safe to say that this theology has killed a few people and >> > some of them were probably kids too young to fight back. As >> > Christopher Hitchens says, religion poisons everything. Not >> > least of all, families. >> > >> > Ron: >> > I agree, I was saying that Christian Science has a lot of >> > experience Defending their beliefs, their argument, from >> > their own perspective Is solid because they use just enough >> > philosophy to justify Their stand. I'm just playing devils >> > advocate here, I am on Your side of the discussion. These >> > folks are dug in. Convincing them of their own disillusion is >> > a tough nut. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> > Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! >> > http://biggestloser.msn.com/ Moq_Discuss mailing list >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> > Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> > Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > >> > No virus found in this incoming message. >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.10/1241 - Release >> > Date: 1/24/2008 9:58 AM >> > >> > >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1243 - Release >> Date: 1/25/2008 >> 11:24 AM >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1243 - Release >> Date: 1/25/2008 11:24 AM >> >> > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1243 - Release Date: > 1/25/2008 > 11:24 AM > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
