>> Hi Margaret -see correction >> >> I guess that doctors deal in SQ, and the SQ, >> the usual order of things, does not always hold, >> as we live in a dynamic world where disorder >> outweighs the order.It would be very dull otherwise, >> and probably not evolving too much either. >> >> David M >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Margaret Warren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [MD] The End of Faith >> >> >> > by the way - I thought perhaps some might take issue >> > with the fact that I said 'I've seen faith heal people'. >> > I guess what I mean by that - I believe there is >> > some science even - that shows that the state >> > that your brain is in - positive/not stressed, etc. >> > has a lot to do with how well you will digest your >> > food, deal with headaches, lower heart rate and so on. >> > If faith makes people feel better they are better able >> > to recover from even serious illnesses. >> > >> > There are so called 'miracles' that happen and people >> > don’t understand how they happened. >> > >> > >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf >> Of Margaret >> >> Warren >> >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 8:50 AM >> >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> Subject: Re: [MD] The End of Faith >> >> >> >> >> >> > dmb says: >> >> > I don't understand why you can't just show them the evidence for >> >> > electrons. Search the web and print out a few things. I've never >> >> > tried myself but I'd bet you could do it in less than an hour. >> >> > >> >> >> >> ha ha - "I've never tried it myself" - I think you should >> >> try it david - >> >> arguing with a pig is far simpler. >> >> >> >> not a gung ho zealot - how >> >> about just your average everyday Southern >> >> Baptist with a college education >> >> who goes to Church on Sunday - >> >> - the argument quickly goes >> >> from "but the Bible is the word of god" >> >> and then you try to point out that the >> >> bible was written by men who left out >> >> books and rewrote it the way they needed to >> >> for political purposes and then they say >> >> 'but it's still the word of god - if it's the >> >> way it is right now, it's because that is the >> >> way god wanted it' >> >> and then if you start to argue about the fact >> >> that there isn't a God - just because you >> >> can't see him/it prove it with electron theory >> >> and so on - they just laugh at you - they say >> >> that's just science and science doesn't know >> >> everything - which it doesn't. >> >> >> >> but even if you were to try it - it is still >> >> everyone's choice what to believe in. >> >> >> >> I've seen faith heal people and I've seen >> >> just the idea that there might be a god >> >> do just as many wonderful things for people. >> >> My grandmother spent every day working >> >> inside of a church having mother's morning >> >> out for free for moms to leave their children under >> >> 5 so they could go shopping and not >> >> pull their hair out. My grandmother >> >> called a list of people every day who were >> >> shut in's and couldn't get out of the house. >> >> She called just to chat with them and see that >> >> they were alright and show them that someone >> >> was thinking about them. >> >> I never heard her preach about god to any of these >> >> people even though it was all done through the >> >> methodist church. >> >> >> >> I have to say I think she did a lot better for >> >> people than you will do showing them that >> >> there isn't a god and they have to think for themselves - >> >> which will more than likely fill them with >> >> fear and anxiety - because for a lot of people - >> >> not having something to believe in is very >> >> disconcerting. >> >> >> >> How many people have you called and shared love >> >> with this week? >> >> >> >> It is far more of a challenge to look inside >> >> yourself and see what it is that makes you >> >> think that you know better than all of these >> >> other people what is best for them. >> >> >> >> everyone is entitled to their own experience >> >> and everyone is moving toward their >> >> perceptions of quality at their own rate - >> >> if you are buddhist, you believe they >> >> have more than one lifetime to come back >> >> and do it again...that's a much >> >> calmer way to think of it - and the >> >> absolute best thing you can do while >> >> you are here is offer compassion to those >> >> around you. >> >> >> >> I agree that what Henry Fonday subjected >> >> his children to, seems barbaric and >> >> absurd - BUT I also think that there are plenty >> >> of MD's out there (the new priests) who >> >> (under the guise of their science and the >> >> medical party line) are doling out plenty >> >> of prescriptions for useless products - >> >> (were several million people all >> >> Prozac deficient all this time?) >> >> >> >> We're sold thousands of >> >> prescriptions a day by a medical culture >> >> that's telling us we can eat whatever we >> >> want and just take lots of pills for the >> >> symptoms. Even high blood pressure, cholestorol - >> >> and scientists who look at how much of our ill health >> >> is about being exposed to pesticides and >> >> plastics are poo pooed as snake oil >> >> salesmen. >> >> >> >> This is pretty absurd as well. >> >> >> >> - trying to convince someone else why they >> >> should not buy into organized religion is >> >> just as static but even more small minded. >> >> >> >> waste of time. >> >> >> >> >> >> look at what SA has been dealing with - trying >> >> to convince young women that not to want to >> >> live a drug filled life of violence. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf >> Of Ron Kulp >> >> > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 8:14 AM >> >> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > Subject: Re: [MD] The End of Faith >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Ron said: >> >> > ...its interpretation of data or interpretation of experience >> >> > that's key. One person's miracle is another's lite lunch. If >> >> > evidence is the only qualifier between faith and reason who's >> >> > to say whose interpretation trumps if the data is the same >> >> > but the explanation varies? >> >> > >> >> > dmb says: >> >> > Well, that's just it. That's the kind of debate worth having, >> >> > one that might lead to some good. When both sides are working >> >> > with reason and evidence, nobody really looses. The end of >> >> > faith means the beginning of a philosophical conversation. >> >> > And when both sides have the data on their side equally the >> >> > aesthetic considerations, further explorations and creativity >> >> > come into play. This is the desired end in the battle against >> >> > faith. This is about the evolutionary freedom of the >> >> intellect, see?. >> >> > >> >> > Ron : >> >> > >> >> > I see where you are coming from. >> >> > >> >> > dmb says: >> >> > I don't understand why you can't just show them the evidence >> >> > for electrons. Search the web and print out a few things. >> >> > I've never tried myself but I'd bet you could do it in less >> >> > than an hour. >> >> > >> >> > Ron: >> >> > Well this was just a for instance but it is still considered >> >> > Electron theory by science. I can't remember where the quote >> >> > Came from but it goes like this: "It is not important that >> >> > these findings are true what is Important is that the methods >> >> > for prediction correspond With observable phenomena." >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > dmb says: >> >> > The other day I heard Peter Fonda talking about his >> >> > childhood. Apparently, Henry Fonda was a christian scientist. >> >> > When Peter, Jane and the other kids got sick he not only >> >> > refused to give them any medicine, he made them believe that >> >> > their suffering was caused by their own spiritual >> >> > shortcomings. He did this to children, to his own children! >> >> > That's cruel and immoral. That's child abuse and it is very >> >> > far from reasonable, let alone "air tight". It's probably >> >> > safe to say that this theology has killed a few people and >> >> > some of them were probably kids too young to fight back. As >> >> > Christopher Hitchens says, religion poisons everything. Not >> >> > least of all, families. >> >> > >> >> > Ron: >> >> > I agree, I was saying that Christian Science has a lot of >> >> > experience Defending their beliefs, their argument, from >> >> > their own perspective Is solid because they use just enough >> >> > philosophy to justify Their stand. I'm just playing devils >> >> > advocate here, I am on Your side of the discussion. These >> >> > folks are dug in. Convincing them of their own disillusion is >> >> > a tough nut. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> >> > Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! >> >> > http://biggestloser.msn.com/ Moq_Discuss mailing list >> >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> >> > Archives: >> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> >> > Archives: >> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> > >> >> > No virus found in this incoming message. >> >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> >> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.10/1241 - Release >> >> > Date: 1/24/2008 9:58 AM >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> >> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1243 - Release >> >> Date: 1/25/2008 >> >> 11:24 AM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> >> Archives: >> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> >> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1243 - Release >> >> Date: 1/25/2008 11:24 AM >> >> >> >> >> > >> > No virus found in this outgoing message. >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1243 - Release Date: >> > 1/25/2008 >> > 11:24 AM >> > >> > >> > >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> > Archives: >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.12/1245 - Release >> Date: 1/26/2008 3:45 PM >> >> > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.12/1245 - Release Date: > 1/26/2008 > 3:45 PM > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
