Hello Magnus.
You said to Chris who had said:
> > Se, here is the problem. After considering Bodvars arguments about
> > SOM being the intellectual level I thought about the thoughts that
> > was before that, and if they could be "thoughts of the social
> > level". I'm not sure yes, but It seems they could from where I stand
> > now.
> > For if thoughts as such is present before the emergence of the
> > forth
> > level - and we know they where, as indeed thoughts is a function of
> > the brain - a static biological pattern - the way the capacity of
> > thought is used is determined of what level is currently in control
> > (as well of course of the level of evolution the said brain is at)
> > then the function of the brain, the thoughts could at a given moment
> > be totally controlled by the social level and the brain interpret
> > everything is registers from the frame of reference of the social
> > level - if that level was all that was around. The thoughts would
> > then be, I guess, biological and social reactions and
> > interpretations of DQ.
Magnus:
> You're getting there, just forget for a moment what others have been
> saying about *when* the 4th level emerged.
> There's a difference between:
> 1. "When did the first 4th level pattern emerge?"
Nothing can be determined or settled regarding the 4th level until
we agree on the SOL issue: ZAMM deals with the emergence of
the SOM - that much all agree on - and if the SOL interpretation
(intellect=the S/O distinction) is accepted, all is plain going, the
MOQ is one smooth development from Phaedrus first gropings
around the Quality idea, over ZAMM's proto-moq to LILA and the
full-fledged MOQ.
If so the first 4th. level patterns were as the said in ZAMM
Early Greek philosophy represented the first conscious
search for what was imperishable in the affairs of men.
Up to then what was imperishable was within the domain
of the Gods, the myths. But now, as a result of the
growing impartiality of the Greeks to the world around
them, there was an increasing power of abstraction which
permitted them to regard the old Greek mythos not as
revealed truth but as imaginative creations of art. This
consciousness, which had never existed anywhere before
in the world, spelled a whole new level of transcendence
for the Greek civilization.
Magnus ctd:
> ... and ...
> 2. "When did 4th level arguments start having an impact on human
> civilization?"
This is a more subtle question. As we know from ZAMM the
breakthrough with Plato and Aristotle took place around 350 BC
(It may have been something similar in the Orient long before,
but I omit it here) and this (from now I call it) "intellectual" value
started to influence that era's civilizations almost right away.
When the Romans took over as the major political power it was
the Greek culture by proxy and I see Christendom as the Greek
influence on Judaism. When the Roman Catholic Church was
established Aristotle became a Church "father" thus intellectual
value was at its (Christendom's) heart even if Medieval times was
a regression to social value.
> Question 1 deals with the metaphysical construction of our universe.
> What kinds of stuff is our universe made of?
Well, the said first search for principles that transcended the old
myth world, was not about stuff in the substance sense, but with
Aristotle "matter" entered the scene. Still only in contrast to
"appearance", but signs of things to come were obvious
The ``something'' that Appearances cling to he named
``substance.'' And at that moment, and not until that
moment, our modern scientific understanding of reality
was born.
> Question 2 deals with human history. It presumes a human civilization
> and discusses how a metaphysics can be applied to human thinking and
> interaction, a fascinating subject I'm sure but not what we should be
> talking about here.
I'm not sure if the two can be clearly separated, but OK.
Bo
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