Hi Bo
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Magnus:
>> You're getting there, just forget for a moment what others have been
>> saying about *when* the 4th level emerged.
>
>> There's a difference between:
>
>> 1. "When did the first 4th level pattern emerge?"
>
> Nothing can be determined or settled regarding the 4th level until
> we agree on the SOL issue: ZAMM deals with the emergence of
> the SOM - that much all agree on - and if the SOL interpretation
> (intellect=the S/O distinction) is accepted, all is plain going, the
> MOQ is one smooth development from Phaedrus first gropings
> around the Quality idea, over ZAMM's proto-moq to LILA and the
> full-fledged MOQ.
The problem with your SOLAQI is the same problem I've been talking to Ron
about.
It assumes our reality consists of thoughts alone. Thoughts of eating, thoughts
of conspiring and then the grand thoughts of intellectual abstraction.
But if you, like Pirsig did in Lila, look at the world around you, write what
you see on small pieces of paper, there are not many of those pieces of paper
that will end up the "thoughts" box, right? A stone is not a thought, the
computer I type on now is not a thought, me thinking about what to write *is* a
thought on the other hand, and of course there's a thought involved when I'm
about to write on each piece of paper. But the vast majority of paper slips
will
not be thoughts.
When you claim that SOLAQI would constitute a 4th level, you say that only
those
thoughts that are about SOM belongs to the 4th level, right? And at the same
time you dismiss other thoughts to lower levels. *That's* my problem with
SOLAQI.
There's no metaphysical (fundamental) difference between different types of
thoughts. Thoughts all end up in the same box, regardless of what they're
about.
Otherwise, if you do as you do, a stone and a thought of that stone would both
end up in the same box. And that's just plain wrong.
> If so the first 4th. level patterns were as the said in ZAMM
>
> Early Greek philosophy represented the first conscious
> search for what was imperishable in the affairs of men.
> Up to then what was imperishable was within the domain
> of the Gods, the myths. But now, as a result of the
> growing impartiality of the Greeks to the world around
> them, there was an increasing power of abstraction which
> permitted them to regard the old Greek mythos not as
> revealed truth but as imaginative creations of art. This
> consciousness, which had never existed anywhere before
> in the world, spelled a whole new level of transcendence
> for the Greek civilization.
Yes, good for them. They were able to gain a deeper understanding of some old
myths that had been bothering, and even ruling, them for centuries. But that's
hardly any basis for a new metaphysical box. If we would make a new box (level)
for each such moment in history, we would end up with at least 10 levels.
Galileo, Newton and Einstein comes to mind.
>> Question 1 deals with the metaphysical construction of our universe.
>> What kinds of stuff is our universe made of?
>
> Well, the said first search for principles that transcended the old
> myth world, was not about stuff in the substance sense, but with
> Aristotle "matter" entered the scene. Still only in contrast to
> "appearance", but signs of things to come were obvious
>
> The ``something'' that Appearances cling to he named
> ``substance.'' And at that moment, and not until that
> moment, our modern scientific understanding of reality
> was born.
And why on earth would anything that Aristotle may or may not have said 2000
years ago matter. Again, I'm not talking about how the thoughts of human
history
have answered that question. I'm talking about how the MoQ does.
I'm thinking philosophology...
>> Question 2 deals with human history. It presumes a human civilization
>> and discusses how a metaphysics can be applied to human thinking and
>> interaction, a fascinating subject I'm sure but not what we should be
>> talking about here.
>
> I'm not sure if the two can be clearly separated, but OK.
Let me know when you can and we'll continue from there.
Magnus
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