Platt, Chris and interested parties.
On 20 Feb. :
Platt:
> > How about China, North Korea, Cambodia, and Cuba? All "catastrophic
> > interpretations" of sweet, benign Marx and Engels communism?
Chris:
> Umh, In a way yes. I don't have time to go into it right now, but the
> Chinese interpretation of LENINISM has been suited for China,
> following it's more than 3000 year old history of a hierarchical
> society, In Cambodia it was tried to return to "Original communism"
> I.e. to reverse the historical development (try to find support for
> THAT in Marx and Engels texts) North Korea is just plain old military
> dictatorship, something that Cuba is a slightly lighter version of -
> and even if some Leninists would argue that Cuba has come further than
> any other communist attempt it is still mingled with nationalism and
> as such it is not real Communism.
Communism has been troublesome for the MOQ Discuss, but I
don't think it need be. (LILA)
The hurricane of social forces released by the overthrow
of society by intellect was most strongly felt in Europe,
particularly Germany, where the effects of World War I
were the most devastating. Communism and socialism,
programs for intellectual control over society, were
confronted by the reactionary forces of fascism, a
program for the social control of intellect.
This is correct IMO, Europe until the end of WW1 was not all
intellect - rational - run. The old social values of "my country right
or wrong" still ruled and that went for the armed forces more than
any, and the generals of all sides callously threw their armies into
a sure annihilation. Duty, discipline come what may. Then with
it's aftermath (or during the war in fact) came the communist
revolution i Russia (Pirsig goes on)
Nowhere were the intellectuals more intense in their
determination to overthrow the old order. Nowhere did
the old order become more intent on finding ways to
destroy the excesses of the new intellectualism. Phædrus
thought that no other historical or political analysis
explains the enormity of these forces as clearly as does
the Metaphysics of Quality.
Communism is a totally intellectual (objective) vision of an ideal
society (to each according to needs and from each according to
ability ...or something like that) It had immense appeal and
almost all western Europe countries got strong communist
movements and in post-war Germany a revolution was just
around the corner. I agree with Pirsig that the MOQ explain this
most convincingly. But NOTE this requires the S/O intellect, a
"manipulation of symbols" intellect makes zero sense. If any the
Nazis were the ones fond of symbols.
The gigantic power of socialism and fascism, which have
overwhelmed this century, is explained by a conflict of
levels of evolution. This conflict explains the driving
force behind Hitler not as an insane search for power but
as an all-consuming glorification of social authority and
hatred of intellectualism. His anti-Semitism was fueled by
anti-intellectualism. His hatred of communists was fueled
by anti-intellectualism. His exaltation of the German volk
was fueled by it. His fanatic persecution of any kind of
intellectual freedom was driven by it.
Right, regarding Hitler and right regarding the forces that
supported him, mostly the "landed gentry" in many countries,
Sweden and Norway too, who saw the collectivization as a great
threat. And around this time (of collectivization) communism went
bad, Christoffer says that nationalism took over, but the many
republics merging into the Soviet Union wasn't exactly a nation
like Pirsig speaking about the "German Volk" - yet. Perhaps the
MOQ explains this in an even deeper sense, that of intellect can't
operate as if disconnected from everything. It's "out of social
value" and can't neglect it.
Nuff said. ...except that I agree with Christoffer on China,
Cambodia, North Korea and Cuba. I think our democracies,
social, or not so social, are the best. For Platts benefit I think
Europeans have a false impression of the USA as harsh on the
poor, "do or die" and such, but there's a lot of welfare programs,
bureaucracy too.
Bo
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